Because you claimed "yet the police are constantly in fear for their lives" as if it was irrational for them to be in fear even though their risk per encounter was lower. Furthermore, a policeman's risk in any individual encounter can be orders of magnitude higher, depending on the circumstances, and he would know it. If a suspect is acting erratically (as if on drugs), or has a serious arrest warrant outstanding, or if the encounter is in a high crime neighborhood, the policeman could have legitimate fear in just one encounter.



It is an unbalanced relationship from the start because of who you are, which, presumably, is a law-abiding citizen. If you were a psychopath, or a violent criminal on the lam, the risk would be far greater for the policeman than for you. Perhaps 99 times out of 100, the policeman has nothing to fear from the person he stopped. But 1 time out of 100, he is at serious risk. The problem is that he doesn't have a good way of differentiating the two situations. There are several acceptable metrics he could try to use: gender (women are far less dangerous than men), age (older people are far less dangerous than people aged 15 to 30), evidence of wealth (wealthy people are less dangerous than poor, in part because they have something to lose), sketchiness of neighborhood (stops in high crime areas are far more dangerous than stops in low crime areas), facial expressions and body language (humans have evolved a rather accurate ability to perceive threat from such visual information), and verbal expression (humans have likewise evolved the ability to perceive thread from auditory information). What police are not supposed to use as a metric (although they probably do subconsciously) is race or ethnicity. I suspect that the other acceptable metrics would easily dominate the unacceptable one if there was a conflict. Unfortunately, some of those acceptable metrics are correlated with race or ethnicity, so the importance of the unacceptable factor is probably overestimated in the statistics.



He only has more control over the encounter actually if the civilian chooses to be compliant. If the civilian has decided not to be compliant for whatever reasons, then in fact the cop has less control because he is constrained by protocol. Which is another way of saying that the cop has less control over the encounter precisely when it matters.

I disagree.

Read the DuJ report into Baltimore. Read the DoJ report into Ferguson. The protocol often relies on self-reporting by the cops, and that was demonstrobly inadequate in many situations, and in a systemic fashion. If you are compliant, but the cop is nervous, then you have far less control when it matters to you.

Shooting is one extreme on a continuum of force - sometimes it is justified, but often the force (including lethal force) is clearly unjustified.

Read what some of the black posters have said in these threads about occasions where they personally have been stopped by police for no reason. Now they might be exaggerating, except that there are plenty of documented cases giving similar accounts, so there is no reason to doubt their stories.

An op ed piece in the Guardian giving examples of the problems (some of it is a bit hyperbolic) but the examples are pretty bad.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...illing-protests-america-law-enforcement-today

The police have become even more open in their declarations that they are not here to serve us. They have threatened not to provide police protection to athletes who dare protest police brutality by not standing during the national anthem. They stopped doing their jobs in New York when the mayor dared to question why so many black men have died by their hands. In Seattle, police demanded higher pay and more benefits before they would start implementing measures to stop abusing the public. In West Virginia, they have started firing police officers for not killing black men. The message has been simple: we are not in service for black people, and if you question us, we won’t be in service for you either.

If you are a black man who has been stopped and searched 30-times in four years and always without finding contraband, then you would be justified in fearing the police.


I am sure there are many good police forces in the country with adequate oversight and training, but there are many which are out of control and without adequate oversight, which makes the system broken. There should be no failing police forces, and if they are, then the system needs to change - probably by rationalising the numbers and organisation.
 
Because you claimed "yet the police are constantly in fear for their lives" as if it was irrational for them to be in fear even though their risk per encounter was lower.

But that is the point: their fear in any given encounter is more irrational than our fear.

They want us to be calm and yet the likelihood of us getting hurt is higher than the likelihood of them getting hurt. I think you were right to focus on a per encounter basis, because that is how we look at these things.

Furthermore, a policeman's risk in any individual encounter can be orders of magnitude higher, depending on the circumstances, and he would know it. If a suspect is acting erratically (as if on drugs), or has a serious arrest warrant outstanding, or if the encounter is in a high crime neighborhood, the policeman could have legitimate fear in just one encounter.

Right, but that fear is being applied to all encounters. Are police even very good at judging when the risk is high? There are plenty of studies showing that they aren't good at judging who has drugs on them, so why should we assume they know when the risk is high?


It is an unbalanced relationship from the start because of who you are, which, presumably, is a law-abiding citizen. If you were a psychopath, or a violent criminal on the lam, the risk would be far greater for the policeman than for you.

That assumes that all police are the same, but that all civilians are different. You can see the problem with that, yes?

How do I know the cop isn't a psychopath who remembers what a dick I was to him in high school? Yeah, I was a dick to a lot of people, the odds are higher than you might imagine.

Perhaps 99 times out of 100, the policeman has nothing to fear from the person he stopped. But 1 time out of 100, he is at serious risk.

I'd say your number are way off. by at least an order of magnitude, if not more.

The problem is that he doesn't have a good way of differentiating the two situations.

Agreed, so really he should be treating everyone as a citizen who deserves their respect until there is a reason not to.

There are several acceptable metrics he could try to use: gender (women are far less dangerous than men), age (older people are far less dangerous than people aged 15 to 30), evidence of wealth (wealthy people are less dangerous than poor, in part because they have something to lose), sketchiness of neighborhood (stops in high crime areas are far more dangerous than stops in low crime areas), facial expressions and body language (humans have evolved a rather accurate ability to perceive threat from such visual information), and verbal expression (humans have likewise evolved the ability to perceive thread from auditory information). What police are not supposed to use as a metric (although they probably do subconsciously) is race or ethnicity. I suspect that the other acceptable metrics would easily dominate the unacceptable one if there was a conflict. Unfortunately, some of those acceptable metrics are correlated with race or ethnicity, so the importance of the unacceptable factor is probably overestimated in the statistics.

Focusing on when to be afraid misses the point that even when all those metrics point towards bad the cop is very unlikely to be harmed. Even if it is a poor young man in a bad neighborhood with shifty eyes and shuffling feet and a threatening or disrespectful tone the likelihood that the cop will be injured is still less than 1 in 100.

Why? Because a lot of those factors are correlated to being afraid of cops. With good reason.

He only has more control over the encounter actually if the civilian chooses to be compliant.

Nope. He has control over whether he even seeks compliance. A stop and frisk requires compliance, while a "hey, you need hand with that?" does not.

Demanding compliance from every encounter is the start of the problem, not a solution to the problem.

If the civilian has decided not to be compliant for whatever reasons, then in fact the cop has less control because he is constrained by protocol.

I don't think cops are showing that they feel all that constrained by protocol, what with them doing things on tape that are out of protocol. But yes, let's blame protocol for them not following protocol.

Which is another way of saying that the cop has less control over the encounter precisely when it matters.

No, they are in complete control when it matters: at the beginning.

The cop sets the tone for any encounter, and they know this. If they want a pleasant encounter they have the choice to start that way. If they want a confrontation they can start that way.
 
Im not arguing it is the seatbelt, actually I dont think it is, but I will say every Ford product (they make Lincoln) I've ever owned has had crappy seatbelt return spring go bad and the seatbelt just hangs there on the seat.
Agreed that over time the belts often don't fully retract when released. This happens with the Ford that I drive which is over 8 years old. It also used to happen with my late-90s Chevy.

I'm staying with the position that we are seeing the shoulder belt. It might not be fully resolved until we get evidence from the investigation.
 
Agreed that over time the belts often don't fully retract when released. This happens with the Ford that I drive which is over 8 years old. It also used to happen with my late-90s Chevy.

I'm staying with the position that we are seeing the shoulder belt. It might not be fully resolved until we get evidence from the investigation.

I think it is this attitude - your attitude - that is one of the root causes of the riots in Charlotte. Seriously, if you want to create a world of insensate violence...then keep doing what you are doing: keep rationalizing that which is inexcusable.
 
I am fairly certain there are reporting requirements.

All depends on the state. Like there are no standards for having any training for police officers. Some states have certain mandates but in others you can still be hired given a gun and put on patrol just like the old days.
 
First of all, the risk in an individual encounter is so small for a civilian that fear of being shot is irrational. Furthermore, if the civilian wants to reduce his risk even more, probably by at least a factor of 10 (to bring it down below the risk that the police officer faces), he can do so by being compliant.

Second of all, and more importantly, the police officer is not acting out of fear. He is acting according to an established protocol, which has been designed to minimize his risk in any individual encounter because he is expected to face many, many such encounters over his career, and it would be untenable to allow the risk in one such encounter to be higher than a certain very low limit.

Then in this case the total terror that the cops felt clearly is not part of the protocol and they should all be sacked then for that.
 
I think it is this attitude - your attitude - that is one of the root causes of the riots in Charlotte. Seriously, if you want to create a world of insensate violence...then keep doing what you are doing: keep rationalizing that which is inexcusable.

The "wait for evidence" attitude vs. the "who cares about the facts let's go burn some cop cars" attitude?
I'd say you're dead on.
You just described the value of skepticism. Try it some time.
 
Agreed that over time the belts often don't fully retract when released. This happens with the Ford that I drive which is over 8 years old. It also used to happen with my late-90s Chevy.

I'm staying with the position that we are seeing the shoulder belt. It might not be fully resolved until we get evidence from the investigation.

So it should be easy to find a photo where the seatbelt does not line up with the blood streak on the outside of the car.
 
That's not going to go over well...

Damn. I'm a civilian and I have no protocol, and I'd go an help, anyway.

Ahhh...the old PCP ploy. When all else fails, claim the guy was on PCP and had super-human strength.

PCP provides someone Super-Human Strength and makes them more dangerous? Baloney!

That's what I love about threads like this: it quickly divides into two "sides" in which people entrench themselves based on their biases, coming to their conclusions way before any evidence is presented, and when it does, they just ignore it because it contradicts their "side".

And in threads like this, this means "cops are always justified" vs "cops are murderous dolts", with a very few people trying to untangle the little evidence we have while attempting to avoid their own biases. Good luck with that.
 
The "wait for evidence" attitude vs. the "who cares about the facts let's go burn some cop cars" attitude?
I'd say you're dead on.
You just described the value of skepticism. Try it some time.

How about the police are covering it up and until they finally release the information we should assume the worst like with Laquan McDonald? Cops always cover for each other.
 
Damn. I'm a civilian and I have no protocol, and I'd go an help, anyway.



That's what I love about threads like this: it quickly divides into two "sides" in which people entrench themselves based on their biases, coming to their conclusions way before any evidence is presented, and when it does, they just ignore it because it contradicts their "side".

And in threads like this, this means "cops are always justified" vs "cops are murderous dolts", with a very few people trying to untangle the little evidence we have while attempting to avoid their own biases. Good luck with that.

Hey...I'm just saying that they shouldn't use the PCP Ploy. It is a Medical Fact that PCP does not give anyone Super-Human strength. But that's what many cops would want you to believe. That's the facts.
 
That is bad logic - it possibly is part of the logic that is used.

Regardless of the proportion of gun crimes committed by blacks compared to whites, gun criminals are only a small proportion of the population.

Yeah but it's not a logical reaction; it's an emotional one, and one that's entirely natural and expected, if irrational, for self-preservation.

So, no, it's not terribly risky to have an encounter with police in general.

The funny thing is, the impression that it is comes from the exact same type of bad logic that jimbob was talking about above, but applied to the police. We can't determine the proportion of shootings based on the number of them reported in the media, especially given their sensationalist tendencies.
 
Agreed that over time the belts often don't fully retract when released. This happens with the Ford that I drive which is over 8 years old. It also used to happen with my late-90s Chevy.

I'm staying with the position that we are seeing the shoulder belt. It might not be fully resolved until we get evidence from the investigation.

To me, the photo looks to show reflection from the window glass.
 
How about the police are covering it up and until they finally release the information we should assume the worst like with Laquan McDonald? Cops always cover for each other.

First off your statement is false. Cops don't "always" do anything.

Secondly, the vast majority of these cases investigated by outside agencies (Cops who dont know each other) determine the officer acted reasonably.

So always assuming the worst would appear to be an irrational action.
This should be obvious.
 
But that is the point: their fear in any given encounter is more irrational than our fear.

They want us to be calm and yet the likelihood of us getting hurt is higher than the likelihood of them getting hurt. I think you were right to focus on a per encounter basis, because that is how we look at these things.



Right, but that fear is being applied to all encounters. Are police even very good at judging when the risk is high? There are plenty of studies showing that they aren't good at judging who has drugs on them, so why should we assume they know when the risk is high?

Really? I'd like to see those studies.

That assumes that all police are the same, but that all civilians are different. You can see the problem with that, yes?

Bad cops would get civilian complaints and should get weeded out of the police force quickly. In theory at least. In practice, it's probably true that the power of police unions has made it harder to remove bad cops. As a society we should work on that if there really is an unacceptable percentage of bad cops. I haven't seen evidence one way or the other. I've certainly encountered cops who I thought were unprofessionally rude, but not so threatening that I would consider them bad cops. Maybe if I were less obedient than I strive to be in such encounters, I would have gotten some evidence that changed my mind.

How do I know the cop isn't a psychopath who remembers what a dick I was to him in high school? Yeah, I was a dick to a lot of people, the odds are higher than you might imagine.

It's certainly possible that the odds are higher than I think. I don't think the occasional story or video of a cop behaving badly is meaningful, however. There are 750,000 cops and something like 13 million arrests per year. Having a controversial encounter happening once a week is to be expected given that cops are human beings.

I'd say your number are way off. by at least an order of magnitude, if not more.

Actually, no. Actual assaults on cops average 50,000 per year. Even if you think that number is exaggerated by, say, a factor of two, you're still talking about a police officer being assaulted in 1 out of 500 arrests. It's not unreasonable to think that a police officer gets assaulted less than 20% of the time he thinks he's in a dangerous situation.

Agreed, so really he should be treating everyone as a citizen who deserves their respect until there is a reason not to.



Focusing on when to be afraid misses the point that even when all those metrics point towards bad the cop is very unlikely to be harmed. Even if it is a poor young man in a bad neighborhood with shifty eyes and shuffling feet and a threatening or disrespectful tone the likelihood that the cop will be injured is still less than 1 in 100.

Why? Because a lot of those factors are correlated to being afraid of cops. With good reason.

Actually, I doubt there is good reason to be afraid of cops unless you routinely break the law. That doesn't mean that there aren't law-abiding people who are afraid of cops, but I think the fear is irrational. Of course, the media doesn't help by publicizing only those instances where cops are behaving badly and not the orders of magnitude more numerous instances of cops behaving professionally, even heroically.

Nope. He has control over whether he even seeks compliance. A stop and frisk requires compliance, while a "hey, you need hand with that?" does not.

Demanding compliance from every encounter is the start of the problem, not a solution to the problem.

I believe that demanding compliance is part of protocol. It's not only a way to minimize risk for the police officer, but it is actually a good way for him to assess the level of risk. I'm not a police officer, so I don't really know, but it's been my experience that cops kind of go ape-**** if you don't follow their instructions. Getting out of the car after a traffic stop is a definite no-no, for example.

I don't think cops are showing that they feel all that constrained by protocol, what with them doing things on tape that are out of protocol. But yes, let's blame protocol for them not following protocol.

Well, once again, you're seeing only the video tape showing bad behavior by cops. Perhaps if you watched one of those reality cop shows on cable, you would see lots of video showing good behavior of cops in response to very bad behavior by suspects.

No, they are in complete control when it matters: at the beginning.

The cop sets the tone for any encounter, and they know this. If they want a pleasant encounter they have the choice to start that way. If they want a confrontation they can start that way.

I doubt there are very many cops who are looking for confrontations. Nothing good can come of it from their point of view. At best, they'll have lots of paperwork. At worst, they could be disciplined, injured, or even prosecuted.
 
First off your statement is false. Cops don't "always" do anything.

Secondly, the vast majority of these cases investigated by outside agencies (Cops who dont know each other) determine the officer acted reasonably.

So always assuming the worst would appear to be an irrational action.
This should be obvious.

Of course not. Just look at how the cops "covered" for people like Serpico...
 

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