Latest GeorgeZimmerman News

[KatieG]

Yes, they said just that. Go read the transcript.

No, the NEN person on the phone told Z he "didn't need to do that". Instead, Z gets out of his car and does exactly that. This is someone who claimed he wanted to be in LE. I'd think Z knew better than to follow M.

 

[Mumbles]

No. You are wrong. The 911 dispatcher never said "don't follow him". Go read the transcript.

And you are incorrect. I am not discussing the call where he pursues Martin, I'm discussing Zimmerman's previous 911 calls. He had a history of treating black people as "suspects" of unknown crimes.

 

[Jules Galen]

I did just before I posted that, to double-check my memory. You obviously didn't. And my memory was correct.

And...you are arguing about meaningless semantics.

 

[KatieG]

And...you are arguing about meaningless semantics.

No, he's not arguing semantics. There is a difference between a non-emergency-number operator telling GZ "he didn't need to do that", and an actual police officer telling him the same thing. Obviously it wouldn't have mattered, as GZ did exactly what he wanted to do in the first place.

 

[Jules Galen]

No, he's not arguing semantics. There is a difference between a non-emergency-number operator telling GZ "he didn't need to do that", and an actual police officer telling him the same thing. Obviously it wouldn't have mattered, as GZ did exactly what he wanted to do in the first place.

And during this disagreement between Zigg and myself, no one ever said a thing about a police officer saying anything to Zimmerman, and yet "out-of-the-blue" you interject this into the comment stream.

Why is that?

 

[KatieG]

And during this disagreement between Zigg and myself, no one ever said a thing about a police officer saying anything to Zimmerman, and yet "out-of-the-blue" you interject this into the comment stream.

Why is that?

Pointing out the difference between an LEO and a NEN person. Authority figures and all that. No police officer spoke to GZ until he had killed TM.

 

[Thermal]

No, it is pointless, because:

1) It has nothing to do with the specific issue we were discussing, i.e. your rather disingenuous and factually-unsupported use of the term "brutal beating".

2) We can play the silly hypothetical game all day. To wit: Put yourself in Martin's position, walking home at night being stalked and confronted by an armed stranger. Would you feel in danger of death or serious bodily harm?

1. A broken nose by itself indicates more than a playful slap, as you seem to treat it. But you know what? You are right. I don't actually know how violent the beating was, considering that I didn't see it. I concede to hyperbole in using that description.

2. If I knew he was armed and I wasn't, yes, I would feel in extreme danger. And I would put some serious asphalt between us. I would not go confront an armed stalker. But Martin didn't know Zim was armed, did he? Which makes your scenario silly, disingenuous and hypothetical.

 

[Babbylonian]

2. If I knew he was armed and I wasn't, yes, I would feel in extreme danger. And I would put some serious asphalt between us. I would not go confront an armed stalker. But Martin didn't know Zim was armed, did he? Which makes your scenario silly, disingenuous and hypothetical.

He might not have known when Zimmerman initiated the confrontation but I'll bet he knew by the time they were fully physically engaged, which would make putting the proverbial beatdown on him entirely justified. Trying to run would just leave him open for being shot in the back by the crazy person who was hunting him.

Gosh, that scenario seems pretty plausible, doesn't it?

 

[Thermal]

Attn Upchurch:

... There is no proof of who started the altercation...

I am including this from post #87 because you keep arguing this point, and we are in agreement on it. I since am only arguing what the evidence suggests. These are different things.

Well, the lack of any evidence of roving band of drag queens means that hypothesis doesn't fit the evidence. How does Zimmerman assaulting Martin first, perhaps by attempting to grab Martin and Martin defending himself, not fit the evidence?

I promise, last time:

Prior to the shooting-
Evidence of Martin assaulting Zimmernan- broken nose, abrasions, contusions.
Evidence of Zimmerman assaulting Martin- absolutely none.

Careful. You're starting to appeal to emotion fairly heavily.

'Start a fight'' versus 'assault' is a fairly heavy appeal to emotion? Seriously?

Likewise, do you contend that Martin had no right to defend himself?

Of course not. Hold the strawman action, if you please. Martin had every right to defend himself, assuming he was assaulted before he went to work on Zimmerman's face. Which there is no evidence of. At all. As has been noted repeatedly.

 

[Thermal]

Counterpoint: Put yourself in Martin's position: walking home, in the dark, a strange adult following you in a pick-up, who then gets out and begins following you on foot. Would you feel in danger of death or serious bodily harm?

These appeals to emotion are logical fallacies for a reason.

No, I would not, having been in that exact scenario. I felt threatened for sure. But imminent death or serious harm was not yet on the table. It is also not an appeal to emotion to ask you to consider the frame of mind of the participants more carefully by imagining your own reaction to the same scenario. It was argued that Zimmerman overreacted after just getting 'punched in the nose', which is a gross understatement of a pinned-down ground-and-pound.

 

[Thermal]

OK, I am putting myself in his position. "Gee, I'm not really that good a fighter, but luckily I have my trusty firearm. No harm in appearing threatening and provoking an altercation with this black-looking guy, never liked the look of'em, I can always shoot him if it starts going south."

C'mon, bud. Little over the top with the Strawman.

Seriously, in what civilized country can an armed bully appear threatening, provoke an altercation, shoot the other guy, and not even get time for manslaughter? The fact that Zimmerman provoked and appeared threatening to Martin with the knowledge that he had a gun and was willing to use it, and that Martin could have reasonably assumed that to be the case, also means that whatever force Martin used was certainly not in excess with regard to the danger posed by Zimmerman. Even if Martin attacked him physically, it's not unreasonable for someone in Martin's situation to presume that Zimmerman might be a trigger-happy, bullying nutso looking for an opportunity to shoot a black guy becaused he made a funny move.

Please note, you made up the highlighted section. Out of thin air. The rest being, again, speculation without evidence.

Considering the objective facts of who Zimmerman was, Martin would certainly have been right in fearing for his life, whether he made the first move or not.

Martin knew these 'objective facts of who Zimmerman was' at the time huh? Whelp, I guess I stand corrected.

 

[Thermal]

Again, why would I put myself in Zimmerman's position? I would never get out of my car to chase someone down, unless I saw that person actually committing a serious crime. Certainly not because they were just walking down the street, as Martin was when Zimmerman decided to pursue him.

And that is a fair observation, I would not do so either. I was asking JohnnyKarate to consider the difference between getting pinned down and beaten, as opposed to just being 'punched in the nose'.

 

[Thermal]

He might not have known when Zimmerman initiated the confrontation but I'll bet he knew by the time they were fully physically engaged, which would make putting the proverbial beatdown on him entirely justified. Trying to run would just leave him open for being shot in the back by the crazy person who was hunting him.

Gosh, that scenario seems pretty plausible, doesn't it?

Absolutely plausible. As are many, many other scenarios. Which are all speculation with no factual support. Just dealing with what we actually know here, not what we imagine.

 

[fishbob]

This is only evidence that they fought and that Martin was winning toward the end. It provides no insight whatsoever as to who was the aggressor, that is, who assaulted whom first.

Who was walking alone, and who had to cruise up in his car and get out of the car to be in close proximity? The provocateur is obvious.

 

[fishbob]

Q. Why didn't Martin run away and call the police?

A. Because he thought the best way to deal with an unarmed white man was to beat their face in.

Or because GZ had a gun.

 

[Babbylonian]

Absolutely plausible. As are many, many other scenarios. Which are all speculation with no factual support. Just dealing with what we actually know here, not what we imagine.

Yes, like the only person who could give beginning-to-end testimony turned out to be a violent sociopath.

I wonder who Trayvon Martin would have turned out to be if he hadn't been stalked by a gun-toting racist...

 

[fishbob]

I already cited the Wiki page, which shows pics with the blood still running and with the hospital report noting treatment for fractured nose, two black eyes etc. No cherry picking, ducky.

Quick edit: if you were pinned down and straddled by a young, strong guy who is aggressively pounding on you, how much would you be minimizing the situation? Honestly, now.

If your poor decisions led you to be the cause of you being in that position, would you honestly now have only yourself to blame?

 

[Thermal]

Yes, like the only person who could give beginning-to-end testimony turned out to be a violent sociopath.

I wonder who Trayvon Martin would have turned out to be if he hadn't been stalked by a gun-toting racist...

I get your point, but a sociopath and a racist? Hyperbole or serious?

 

[Thermal]

If your poor decisions led you to be the cause of you being in that position, would you honestly now have only yourself to blame?

Being pinned and beaten is not a proportional response to shadowing someone. Whoever escalated the conflict to violence is the instigator. If GZ just trailed Martin, or even asked who he was or what he was doing, that isn't justification for assault.

 

[Babbylonian]

I get your point, but a sociopath and a racist? Hyperbole or serious?

Quite serious. The man goes hunting for violent situations and it's clear that from the start he decided Martin was suspicious (or at least that he could claim he was suspicious) because he was black. He's a menace and it's a miracle he hasn't gotten anyone else killed or just killed straight-up killed someone else.