Another unarmed black man shot

Lithrael said:
It's interesting to see the numbers on the spread of unarmed people getting shot by the police. Are there really no journalists who are interested/able to publicize the ones that don't go viral? I mean, I understand all the news sites that want to jump on cases like this because it'll get all the eyeballs, but I'm not even aware of anywhere I can go to see/see discussions of white people or really anyone besides black people getting shot. I can think of a few cases that have made the news where white guys with mental problems have been shot after their families called for help, but even then I don't know of anyone who's agitating for justice there, even though it looks like it needs it. Even facebook/youtube comments on stuff like that usually just blame the families for being so stupid as to call the cops.

I mean, we absolutely do need attention on the cops on all this stuff that looks like panic-shooting black guys, but they're doing a lot of other awful stuff to the other races too; is this really all just USA police-deification where the only ones willing to stick their neck out and kick up a fuss about their terrible treatment are black people?

I read that an average of five officers a year face any kind of charges after fatally shooting people on duty, with less than one conviction a year - while there are something like 1000 fatal on-duty police shootings. I don't have any trouble believing the great majority of those shootings were justified, but 0.1% unjustified seems like it's probably a stretch. I mean, we get clear video of a couple of 'what the hell were they thinking' shootings every year already - are we supposed to believe nothing this stupid happens when nobody is filming?
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It isn't the officers fault that the cameras always stop working right before they shoot people.
 
Lithrael said:
It's interesting to see the numbers on the spread of unarmed people getting shot by the police. Are there really no journalists who are interested/able to publicize the ones that don't go viral? I mean, I understand all the news sites that want to jump on cases like this because it'll get all the eyeballs, but I'm not even aware of anywhere I can go to see/see discussions of white people or really anyone besides black people getting shot. I can think of a few cases that have made the news where white guys with mental problems have been shot after their families called for help, but even then I don't know of anyone who's agitating for justice there, even though it looks like it needs it. Even facebook/youtube comments on stuff like that usually just blame the families for being so stupid as to call the cops.

I mean, we absolutely do need attention on the cops on all this stuff that looks like panic-shooting black guys, but they're doing a lot of other awful stuff to the other races too; is this really all just USA police-deification where the only ones willing to stick their neck out and kick up a fuss about their terrible treatment are black people?

I read that an average of five officers a year face any kind of charges after fatally shooting people on duty, with less than one conviction a year - while there are something like 1000 fatal on-duty police shootings. I don't have any trouble believing the great majority of those shootings were justified, but 0.1% unjustified seems like it's probably a stretch. I mean, we get clear video of a couple of 'what the hell were they thinking' shootings every year already - are we supposed to believe nothing this stupid happens when nobody is filming?
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Most of the 697 cases this year involved a deadly weapon, though. That was also the case last year. So it seems normal that few of the cases would involve charging the officer.
 
NoahFence said:
Why were they drawn to begin with??

.
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I agree. He had car trouble. He didn't need to be treated like a suspect, he needed help with the car.

As soon as they learned he was having car trouble, their job should have been to secure the area (to make sure other cars don't smash him) and help him get the assistance needed. That's what the locals do when a car is sitting on the side of the road with its flashers on.

There was no basis to treat him like a suspect of anything. Except, of course, that he is black.
 
pgwenthold said:
I agree. He had car trouble. He didn't need to be treated like a suspect, he needed help with the car.

As soon as they learned he was having car trouble, their job should have been to secure the area (to make sure other cars don't smash him) and help him get the assistance needed. That's what the locals do when a car is sitting on the side of the road with its flashers on.

There was no basis to treat him like a suspect of anything. Except, of course, that he is black.
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This could be where we need to know what the responding officers were told they were responding to...

I doubt they were told they were responding to a simple disabled vehicle, for example.
 
LTC8K6 said:
This could be where we need to know what the responding officers were told they were responding to...

I doubt they were told they were responding to a simple disabled vehicle, for example.
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The car is sitting in the road, right? It's not like they pulled him over or anything. He parked the car there (or it stopped running or otherwise stopped itself). He was not observed driving improperly.

So in that situation - car sitting in the road inoperative, the response is to suspect criminal behavior?

I don't CARE what the dispatch told them, the police did not observe any suspect behavior, so why treat him as a suspect? Why not wander up and ask, "What seems to be the trouble here?"
 
pgwenthold said:
The car is sitting in the road, right? It's not like they pulled him over or anything. He parked the car there (or it stopped running or otherwise stopped itself). He was not observed driving improperly.

So in that situation - car sitting in the road inoperative, the response is to suspect criminal behavior?

I don't CARE what the dispatch told them, the police did not observe any suspect behavior, so why treat him as a suspect? Why not wander up and ask, "What seems to be the trouble here?"
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OK, but I think if they were told the car had a bomb/explosives in it, it's relevant.
 
pgwenthold said:
I agree. He had car trouble. He didn't need to be treated like a suspect, he needed help with the car.

As soon as they learned he was having car trouble, their job should have been to secure the area (to make sure other cars don't smash him) and help him get the assistance needed. That's what the locals do when a car is sitting on the side of the road with its flashers on.

There was no basis to treat him like a suspect of anything. Except, of course, that he is black.
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I think this is part of it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/06/these-cops-are-tired-of-white-people-getting-freaked-out-by-their-black-neighbors/
 
pgwenthold said:
I agree. He had car trouble. He didn't need to be treated like a suspect, he needed help with the car.

As soon as they learned he was having car trouble, their job should have been to secure the area (to make sure other cars don't smash him) and help him get the assistance needed. That's what the locals do when a car is sitting on the side of the road with its flashers on.

There was no basis to treat him like a suspect of anything. Except, of course, that he is black.
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I assume you know both what the police were told when they were dispatched there and everything that transpired from the time the police arrived to make this statement.

He had car trouble. He didn't need to be treated like a suspect, he needed help with the car.
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Some evidence points to it being more than the guy had trouble with his car.
First the way the car is in the middle of the street I believe over the middle divider is unusual for car trouble on an uncrowded road.

The fact that so many police are there leads me to believe it is not just car problems. You don't think typically when a person is found with car troubles the police don't do exactly what you suggested should be done.
their job should have been to secure the area (to make sure other cars don't smash him) and help him get the assistance needed.
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This doesn't sound typical of someone with just car problems.
One of two witnesses who reported the car blocking traffic on 36th St. N told a 911 dispatcher a man had fled from the car, telling her it was going to explode.

"He took off running," the woman said. "He just left it. I think he's smoking something."
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LTC8K6 said:
OK, but I think if they were told the car had a bomb/explosives in it, it's relevant.
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The standard report is that they were responding to a report of an abandoned vehicle.

And the audio recording all seem to indicate that they were terrified of the bad dude who was probably on drugs no talk of bombs.

"In the video taken from the helicopter, a male is heard to say, "That looks like a bad dude too. He might be on something."

Crutcher is then seen to fall to the ground."

So the bomb thing doesn't seem to be what the officers on scene were thinking about.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/09/19/police-involved-shooting-black-man-tulsa-prompts-investigation/90716058/
 
According to a Tulsa newspaper she was not dispatched there. She stopped to investigate.
 
eeyore1954 said:
I assume you know both what the police were told when they were dispatched there and everything that transpired from the time the police arrived to make this statement.



Some evidence points to it being more than the guy had trouble with his car.
First the way the car is in the middle of the street I believe over the middle divider is unusual for car trouble on an uncrowded road.

The fact that so many police are there leads me to believe it is not just car problems. You don't think typically when a person is found with car troubles the police don't do exactly what you suggested should be done.


This doesn't sound typical of someone with just car problems.
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They are not reporting anything other than the officer who shot thought he was going to the car for a gun.

"Scott Wood, an attorney representing Shelby, says there's more to the story than the videos, which show Crutcher walking with his hands up before the shooting as officers follow him.
He says Shelby thought Crutcher was retrieving a weapon from his car when she opened fire. She had yelled repeatedly that he should get down and stop walking, Wood said. But Crutcher kept going, placing his hands in his pockets, where she also feared there could be a weapon, Wood said.
"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/oklahoma-tulsa-police-shooting/

The department doesn't seem to be telling much about why they had the helicopter there. Maybe they needed to use it more to justify the expense.
 
ponderingturtle said:
The standard report is that they were responding to a report of an abandoned vehicle.

And the audio recording all seem to indicate that they were terrified of the bad dude who was probably on drugs no talk of bombs.

"In the video taken from the helicopter, a male is heard to say, "That looks like a bad dude too. He might be on something."

Crutcher is then seen to fall to the ground."

So the bomb thing doesn't seem to be what the officers on scene were thinking about.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/09/19/police-involved-shooting-black-man-tulsa-prompts-investigation/90716058/
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You generally don't send that many cops and a helicopter to a disabled vehicle, though. Other cops don't stop by to help with a disabled vehicle.

At least I wouldn't think so.
 
LTC8K6 said:
She could have heard the dispatcher, though.

She either stopped because of the number of cops on the scene, or because of what the dispatcher said?
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According to the press conference, Shelby was en route to a domestic call and she happened upon the abandoned vehicle. There was a another officer dispatched to the abandoned vehicle after a citizen called and said it was parked in the middle of the road with all the doors open.

I haven't heard the audio yet, but is reported that Shelby called dispatch after arriving on the scene because Crutcher was not cooperating with her. That seems to be believable because the dash cam footage that captures the shooting also shows that the cop car recording is hauling ass while running code to get to the scene. The video also shows another cop car running code on the way to the scene as well. This may also explain the helicopter's presence.

I have yet to see or hear video and audio from Shelby's car or any recordings of the officers once they are outside of their cars. There may be some key evidence from those recordings that we have not heard or seen yet even though Chief Jordan made it sound like that they have made all recordings available to the public.
 
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LTC8K6 said:
You generally don't send that many cops and a helicopter to a disabled vehicle, though. Other cops don't stop by to help with a disabled vehicle.

At least I wouldn't think so.
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So find a source for what they said. Everything that they are putting out seems to involve it being an officer terrified of a black man and opening fire. At least this time the guy was not lying on the ground. THere doesn't seem to be any repercussions for the officer who shot the black therapist lying on the ground begging them not to shoot, so why would this get any punishement?

There will be a big settlement but no consequences for the officers, that is how these things work out.
 
Total speculation: Just watching that, they were probably yelling at him "get down" , "get down on the ground" and he kept walking away. Reaching into a car or pocket under those circumstances probably prompted the officer to shoot.
Tragic and horrible.
Avoidable.
Criminal? That will be a tough sell.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Ah heroic cops often shoot people reaching into their cars, sometimes they even get charged for it like decorated cop Sean Groubert. He ordered the guy to show him his licience and he reached into his car, not following orders and reaching into a car is great reasons to shoot someone. Shame he made a plea deal he would likely have been exonerated in court.
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Levar Jones reaching into his car was actually him following orders because that is where his license was.

The officer made an absurd number of procedural mistakes in very rapid sequence for a routine stop. It was in no way a proper "contact" at all. I can see how after a few years the process of issuing a citation can seem absurdly bureaucratized and laborious, but the process is in place for a reason.

Remember this was for a man who unbuckled his seat belt a tad too soon as he rolled to a stop at a gas station.
 
Drewbot said:
Oh well, this just changed everything.
At 50 seconds into this CNN video he clearly reaches in his pocket. He turns towards the officers while reaching in his pocket with both hands.


The cop is going to say she thought he was reaching for a weapon. Which I can fully understand from this angle.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/oklahoma-tulsa-police-shooting/
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In the Tulsa newspaper her attorney said the taser and the shooting were simultaneous because both officers perceived the same threat.
Of course that is hardly an unbiased source but it does make sense.
 
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LTC8K6 said:
She could have heard the dispatcher, though.

She either stopped because of the number of cops on the scene, or because of what the dispatcher said?
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Either way it appears something must have happened before the videos that caused there to be so many police there and guns drawn.
 
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