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Firearms are for sporting and hunting

I suppose you could cook up circumstances where an "armed revolt" was a justifiable endeavor, bizzarre though that might be.

There are a wide variety of sporting and recreational uses for firearms of course...Some of them are even Olympic events.

But to declare that there is never any need for self-defense purposes for firearms seems rather odd. One post above gave a single instance. But there are many such. When I was a lad, I joined the NRA primarily to get the organization's publication, The American Rifeman. This had lots of excellent technical articles and reviews each month.
They also published a monthly column called the "armed citizen" which was news accounts of people using firearms to defend themselves. These were culled from newspaper articles (citations required) and were mailed in by members (no internet back then).
There would be 20-30 published each month. Which would seem to indicate a much higher incidence of such events, since these were only articles sent in to the magazine by members of the NRA.

This continues to the present day, with an online list of "armed citizen" incidents:

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/

These things happen. There are violent criminals, and they attack, murder, rape, and assault people. The Police (and of course, I write this as a police officer) cannot defend you from these things, save in vastly rare situations. Usually we pick up the pieces. We do a fair to middling job of catching the bad guys, but that's after the fact. Doesn't help the victim much.

It would be very pleasant to live somewhere that such things are so rare as to be of no concern. Much of the US is actually that way; people living in small towns and rural situations where no one locks their doors and crime is almost non-existent.
But that's not the case for people living (as does much of the population) in large cities with a high crime rate.
There is always the possibility that an individual will be targeted for robbery, rape, assault, carjacking, home-invasion, whatever.

One can of course meekly submit.... Often handing over your goodies to a robber ends the transaction. Not always. Sometimes victims are killed anyway. The other crimes involve violence from the get-go.

Some people are strongly averse to violence. They simply cannot bear the thought of harming another person, regardless of the circumstances. That's fine.
But there are those of use who simply cannot bear the thought of meekly submitting to attack. We do not see why we should be deprived of the ability to defend ourselves.
 
Will happen? How do you get from may happen, which is what the quoted statement says, to will happen, which it does not?

But it can hardly take a great deal of imagination to consider how an uprising by an armed minority could destroy the government of the day. It's happened time and again in the past, not least in your own armed uprising against the British colonial rule, which I believe to be the source of the American "fetishization" of the idea of armed rebellion against the government.

I think what, at root, Americans "fetishize" about is that Government should be of the people, by the people, for the people. And if the people don’t like what they’ve got, then they should be able to change it.

What you are focused on is the “trimmings” and symbolism (stemming from the history of the War of Independence and a recognition that, generally speaking, one can’t just ask a genuinely oppressive government to back off… you’ll need some kind of force or threat of force). It’s like saying that Britain founded an Empire because they were flag fetishists, who obsessed about sticking the Union Jack in foreign holes.
 
One of the cool things about guns in the US is that more white people have them than black people.
 
I suppose you could cook up circumstances where an "armed revolt" was a justifiable endeavor, bizzarre though that might be.

There are a wide variety of sporting and recreational uses for firearms of course...Some of them are even Olympic events.

But to declare that there is never any need for self-defense purposes for firearms seems rather odd. One post above gave a single instance. But there are many such. When I was a lad, I joined the NRA primarily to get the organization's publication, The American Rifeman. This had lots of excellent technical articles and reviews each month.
They also published a monthly column called the "armed citizen" which was news accounts of people using firearms to defend themselves. These were culled from newspaper articles (citations required) and were mailed in by members (no internet back then).
There would be 20-30 published each month. Which would seem to indicate a much higher incidence of such events, since these were only articles sent in to the magazine by members of the NRA.

This continues to the present day, with an online list of "armed citizen" incidents:

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/

These things happen. There are violent criminals, and they attack, murder, rape, and assault people. The Police (and of course, I write this as a police officer) cannot defend you from these things, save in vastly rare situations. Usually we pick up the pieces. We do a fair to middling job of catching the bad guys, but that's after the fact. Doesn't help the victim much.

It would be very pleasant to live somewhere that such things are so rare as to be of no concern. Much of the US is actually that way; people living in small towns and rural situations where no one locks their doors and crime is almost non-existent.
But that's not the case for people living (as does much of the population) in large cities with a high crime rate.
There is always the possibility that an individual will be targeted for robbery, rape, assault, carjacking, home-invasion, whatever.

One can of course meekly submit.... Often handing over your goodies to a robber ends the transaction. Not always. Sometimes victims are killed anyway. The other crimes involve violence from the get-go.

Some people are strongly averse to violence. They simply cannot bear the thought of harming another person, regardless of the circumstances. That's fine.
But there are those of use who simply cannot bear the thought of meekly submitting to attack. We do not see why we should be deprived of the ability to defend ourselves.

Using numbers from the National Crime Victimization Survey the Violence Policy Center produced this report:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable16.pdf

Acording to the VPC, no friend of the 2nd Amendment, their number for defensive gun uses from 2012 to 2014:

COMPARING NCVS DATA TO CLAIMS THAT GUNS ARE USED IN SELF-DEFENSE 2.5 MILLION TIMES A YEAR

Using the NCVS numbers, for the three-year period 2012 through 2014, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 263,500.

In. comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same three-year period guns were used 7.5 million times in self defense (applying to the three-year period the gun lobby’s oft-repeated claim, noted earlier, that firearms are used in self defense 2.5 million times a year)


Underlining above mine.

Note that they are referencing their DGU number solely to debunk other DGU numbers.

I don't find a figure of 240.639 DGU incidents per day unimpressive for a real world number.
 
It's very well-established that the numbers for DGUs that are used by the gun lobby are vastly exaggerated.

And Bikewer is also putting words into my mouth. You know I really hate that. I never said that firearms were never required for self-defense. But when your attacker doesn't have a gun, you don't always need a gun to defend yourself. See, the gun culture in America is self-perpetuating. Criminals have guns, therefore citizens need guns to defend themselves from them. Even though by the time you have brought your gun from idle to action, the criminal may well have already shot you. Criminals have guns expecting to use them. They use them to threaten and intimidate - they already have it drawn. When a criminal has a gun drawn on you, the expectation that you will be able to draw your own gun from its concealed holster, disengage the safety, aim and fire before the criminal has a chance to move a single finger is pure Hollywood Wild West fantasy.

Well, that's one possible situation anyway. There are other situations where it might be possible to use a gun to defend oneself against another gun user, especially in a mass shooting situation. But those are roundly defended by the gun advocates as being extremely rare, and rightly so.

If someone is coming at you with a knife, you requiring a gun to defend yourself is, again, straight out of a movie. They put one of your guys in hospital, you put one of their guys in the morgue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fictional character in that movie was not exactly being portrayed as a Good Guy.

Again I say that the best way to defend yourself against criminals with guns is to make it very hard for criminals to get guns in the first place. That will require some or most law-abiding gun owners to bite the bullet (as it were) and accept that they are going to have to give up some of their cherished so-called "freedoms" (the biggest con perpetrated on the American people in their history) in the name of public safety.

While Americans remain "free", Americans will die at rates far greater than any other developed country. Is that really acceptable to you?
 
It's very well-established that the numbers for DGUs that are used by the gun lobby are vastly exaggerated.

And Bikewer is also putting words into my mouth. You know I really hate that. I never said that firearms were never required for self-defense. But when your attacker doesn't have a gun, you don't always need a gun to defend yourself. See, the gun culture in America is self-perpetuating. Criminals have guns, therefore citizens need guns to defend themselves from them. Even though by the time you have brought your gun from idle to action, the criminal may well have already shot you. Criminals have guns expecting to use them. They use them to threaten and intimidate - they already have it drawn. When a criminal has a gun drawn on you, the expectation that you will be able to draw your own gun from its concealed holster, disengage the safety, aim and fire before the criminal has a chance to move a single finger is pure Hollywood Wild West fantasy.

Well, that's one possible situation anyway. There are other situations where it might be possible to use a gun to defend oneself against another gun user, especially in a mass shooting situation. But those are roundly defended by the gun advocates as being extremely rare, and rightly so.

If someone is coming at you with a knife, you requiring a gun to defend yourself is, again, straight out of a movie. They put one of your guys in hospital, you put one of their guys in the morgue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fictional character in that movie was not exactly being portrayed as a Good Guy.

Again I say that the best way to defend yourself against criminals with guns is to make it very hard for criminals to get guns in the first place. That will require some or most law-abiding gun owners to bite the bullet (as it were) and accept that they are going to have to give up some of their cherished so-called "freedoms" (the biggest con perpetrated on the American people in their history) in the name of public safety.

While Americans remain "free", Americans will die at rates far greater than any other developed country. Is that really acceptable to you?

That's fine.

What about an anti-gun group citing numbers that work out to 240+ DGU's per day in America?
 
Many folks believe that we have a natural right to defend ourselves and our homes with violence if neccessary.

Guns are simply a very effective tool for that.

And the stats show that when a society has achieved a lot when it comes to medical care, education, and socio-economic equality, there are many fewer murders and other crimes with guns.

Switzerland and Iceland have high gun ownership rates but low murder and crime rates.

Why? Socio-economic equality.
 
Many folks believe that we have a natural right to defend ourselves and our homes with violence if neccessary.

Guns are simply a very effective tool for that.

And the stats show that when a society has achieved a lot when it comes to medical care, education, and socio-economic equality, there are many fewer murders and other crimes with guns.

Switzerland and Iceland have high gun ownership rates but low murder and crime rates.

Why? Socio-economic equality.
Which is the other point I made earlier in the thread. Reduce poverty, reduce crime.

But wholesale social change, while possible, is harder to achieve than simply writing better laws to mitigate the worst effects of violent crime.
 
One of the cool things about guns is that they can make any sort of tense situation a lot more interesting.
 
Which is the other point I made earlier in the thread. Reduce poverty, reduce crime.

But wholesale social change, while possible, is harder to achieve than simply writing better laws to mitigate the worst effects of violent crime.

I think some of the changes we need to reduce poverty and inequality are not that expensive.

#1. Free college. Everyone who wants to go to college and has the grades, should be able to go to a public college in their state.

#2. Free healthcare or much more affordable healthcare. I know this will cost a lot of $$$, but after 10 years we will have saved a lot of money in the long run.

You do these two things, and poverty will decrease. People's sense of hopelessness and powerlessness will decrease.

I believe one of the greatest contributors to poverty is the sense that things can't and won't change.
 
Well, for a start, don't allow neighbourhoods to exist where every knock on the door can reasonably be expected to be a home invader intent on doing you harm.
.
Never been there, but Google hardly makes it look like some crack infested 'hood. And photos of the woman's house seem to agree with the description as "upper-middle-class suburban home"
Unfortunately these days thugs have cars and can drive anywhere so even those neighbourhoods may get a knock from an unreasonable home invader.
 
I repeat that the use of firearms in self defense, despite the near-religious convictions of some American firearm owners, is not even remotely necessary.

And armed revolt? Seriously?

This wouldn't seem to be putting words in anyone's mouth.... Not even remotely necessary?

Just in the case in discussion, you have a single woman, with young children, being confronted by a male individual armed at least with a crowbar.

Of course there are times when less-than-lethal weapons will suffice. I carry a bunch of them. But I'm highly trained, and I have backup as well...Not only on my person but in the form of other officers.
The civilian cannot count on this....There's no "continuum of force with civilians as there is with us.. The civilian cannot be expected to have available a variety of tools with which to address various kinds of threats.

Oh, and burglars ring the doorbell all the time, and knock, and even call if they have the number... They don't want a confrontation for the most part.
But if confronted, if lines of escape or blocked or the individual is on drugs or just has a violent disposition.... Things can get dicey.
We recently had a case where a woman "walked in" on a pair of burglars who were looting her home.
She was shot dead.

We had another case within the last year where home invaders forced their way in to an elderly couple's home and demanded money. They had heard the old man had money on the property.
They held the wife while the old guy went for the cash. The old guy was a WWII veteran and returned with an M-1 rifle and killed both of the robbers.

Both the couple would likely have been killed otherwise, that's fairly typical with home-invasion cases.
 
I think some of the changes we need to reduce poverty and inequality are not that expensive.

#1. Free college. Everyone who wants to go to college and has the grades, should be able to go to a public college in their state.

#2. Free healthcare or much more affordable healthcare. I know this will cost a lot of $$$, but after 10 years we will have saved a lot of money in the long run.

You do these two things, and poverty will decrease. People's sense of hopelessness and powerlessness will decrease.
I completely agree. And yet...

I believe one of the greatest contributors to poverty is the sense that things can't and won't change.
Also one of the greatest contributors to the vastly inflated American gun death rate.
 
This wouldn't seem to be putting words in anyone's mouth.... Not even remotely necessary?
Oh please. You can't tell the difference between it's not necessary and there is never any need?

The word "necessary" means that there are no cases where the use of a firearm is not required - there can be no possible positive outcome unless a firearm is used. When I say that it isn't "necessary" I mean that there are cases where the use of a firearm is not required. When I say that it "isn't remotely necessary" I am saying that there are many cases where the use of a firearm is not necessary. In no case am I saying that there is never any need to use a firearm, which is what you claimed I said.

English 101, Bikewer. Read for comprehension.
 
Never been there, but Google hardly makes it look like some crack infested 'hood. And photos of the woman's house seem to agree with the description as "upper-middle-class suburban home"
Unfortunately these days thugs have cars and can drive anywhere so even those neighbourhoods may get a knock from an unreasonable home invader.
It seemed to be a pretty rough neighbourhood when the woman and her children immediately fled to a crawlspace because someone rang their doorbell.

In my neighbourhood, I feel safe answering the door. I have no expectation that the person ringing the doorbell intends to do me harm, and I feel no need to run for the crawlspace when it happens. Apparently this woman fears the doorbell so much that her immediate response is to run and hide, rather than to answer the door.

This suggests that either she is living in a very rough neighbourhood, or there is more to the situation than we are being told. Was she perhaps expecting a person intent on harm to come visiting? I can't think of any other circumstance where a simple ring on the doorbell would send me fleeing. The fact that the intruder pursued her to the crawlspace rather than just grabbing the TV and running suggests that he had intentions other than simple theft.
 

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