Firearms are for sporting and hunting

[Giz]

See, this is why I really should stop saying anything. When people so blatantly and obviously misrepresent my views and think that they know what I would rather better than I do, I actually get really *********** angry.

You know nothing about me or what I think or believe. You lie about me for your own political and ideological purposes. Knock it the **** off.

Nonsense. I held a mirror up for you to see your views and you didn't like it.

 

[Cleon]

And when you have a gun, everything looks like a target.

Arth, it's hard to take your umbrage at being misrepresented seriously when you say stupid **** like this. I mean, I don't even think you seriously think that.

 

[Ranb]

And when you have a gun, everything looks like a target.

Did someone teach you this attitude? How did you learn something so completely stupid?

Perhaps you are familiar with the rules of firearm safety? They're not unusual; they also make sense. Here is one version of many;

1.All guns are always loaded.
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3.Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4.Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Pay special attention to #2. Gunfire is typically intended to destroy (in the long run) the target unless it is built to withstand impacts. Did it ever occur to you that most people know (even if they don't behave that way) they shouldn't carelessly point a gun at someone? I can't really imagine what it would feel like to think everything is a target. Please tell me how a gun can make you feel that way.

Ranb

 

[sadhatter]

What the hell are you talking about? She felt threatened enough to retreat to the farthest reaches of the house with her kids. I cannot imagine a more useless instrument than a baseball bat when hiding in a crawlspace with children. How in the world would a baseball bat provide any defense at all in that particular situation. I am not trying to be funny or sarcastic. I am seriously responding to the stupid idea that a baseball bat would afford any protection in this situation.

I have absolutely no problem with a home intruder getting shot in the face after he corners the homeowners. If you don't want to get shot in the face, then don't break into a home.

There are hundreds or thousands or perhaps even tens of thousands of examples of unnecessary use of guns. I am a card carrying liberal and I see nothing wrong with the mother's actions.

Don't bother, not knowing about self defense then claiming absurd levels of knowledge on it is this guy's thing.

 

[sadhatter]

Oh duh. Please use a modicum of imagination. Of course I would not have recommended that she retreat to a crawlspace, which is a place where it is more or less impossible to perform any kind of nonlethal defensive action.

In fact my recommendations would have begun well before the dude ever rang the doorbell.

Around these parts we call that being a Monday morning quarterback. It's easy to do when you are not on the field.

 

[sadhatter]

Arth, it's hard to take your umbrage at being misrepresented seriously when you say stupid **** like this. I mean, I don't even think you seriously think that.

I agree, his points seem to focus on using canned lines when they really don't apply, then getting angry when someone points out the real world repercussions of his ideas.

 

[theprestige]

The lawfulness of the activity confers legitimacy on the tools of that activity.

Because we accept that hunting, and target shooting are lawful activities we accept that the tools required to carry out those activities are also lawful.

Nope. It's certainly convenient when legality and legitimacy go hand in hand. And of course we should all strive to order our societies such that they do go hand in hand. But sometimes they don't. And then we have hard choices to make.

 

[arthwollipot]

And what would those recommendations be? Razorwire? Electric fence? Claymore mines? Take away the Welcome Mat?

Well, for a start, don't allow neighbourhoods to exist where every knock on the door can reasonably be expected to be a home invader intent on doing you harm.

But that's a social problem, and nothing to do wth guns.

Speaking of which, I notice that once again we have split away from the general topic of guns for sporting and hunting and started to focus on one specific and unrepeatable situation, and what we think should or should not have happened in that situation. We weren't there, we don't know all the circumstances, and we should not be, in the phrase that someone just used, armchair quarterbacking on a situation that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I acknowledge my part in this derail, and I undertake to not comment on that unique situation any further.

Furthermore, I have used my Ignore feature to prevent myself from acknowledging those posters who insist on misrepresenting my views - those who think that they know better than I do how I think. Although this means that these lies will thereby go unchallenged, it's better for my blood pressure this way. Hopefully this thread can now return to the appropriate topic.

 

[BStrong]

Straw man. The Second Amendment mentions nothing about hunting and sporting. The only allusion made to the intended use of private arms in the Constitution is as part of a well-regulated militia, which is about safety and security. It certainly isn't about general skepticism and the paranormal. If you're going to give us a shotgun blast of trolling, at least trying to get your posts into the right subforum.

We got the "Sporting Use" jive as part of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Domestic firearms manufacturers suffered from the glut of inexpensive WWI & WWII bolt rifles available through mail order that guys would either use as is, or rebuild (with a wide range of skill and ability - from masterpiece to abortion) into traditional styled hunting rifles.

The issue of inexpensive handguns wasn't just one of crime use - Domestic manufacturers of handguns believed that cutting out the foreign competition was a good idea, and the points system:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/atf-form-4590-factoring-criteria-weapons/download

Was developed by Treasury to establish technical criteria to qualify foreign handguns for importation into the U.S.

That's about the legal limit under federal law of "sporting" as a qualification for firearms possession or firearms use.

 

[GlennB]

It thought they were a substitute for Americans unwillingness to pay for law enforcement.

Mostly for a reluctance to pay for decent doors and windows. So much easier to blow somebody away than fit decent home security hardware.

 

[BStrong]

Mostly for a reluctance to pay for decent doors and windows. So much easier to blow somebody away than fit decent home security hardware.

The door I fitted to the one vulnerable entrance point in my current place, along with shatter-proof glass in the same area w/o installation (I and my contractor buddy did the install) was over 8 grand, but I was buying on protection level, not cost or beauty. I'd like my musical instruments and firearms etc. to be in the same place they were when I left home.

You can get a decent security door and jam kit for under 1K $ w/o installation. If you have to do every window and if you have multiple entrance points it can get expensive in a hurry.

 

[tyr_13]

Mostly for a reluctance to pay for decent doors and windows. So much easier to blow somebody away than fit decent home security hardware.

The door I fitted to the one vulnerable entrance point in my current place, along with shatter-proof glass in the same area w/o installation (I and my contractor buddy did the install) was over 8 grand, but I was buying on protection level, not cost or beauty. I'd like my musical instruments and firearms etc. to be in the same place they were when I left home.

You can get a decent security door and jam kit for under 1K $ w/o installation. If you have to do every window and if you have multiple entrance points it can get expensive in a hurry.

And if you're renting, you're just **** out of luck.

Plus you have to have a good level of knowledge when buying these things, and have a contractor you really trust. I've installed some doors and uninstalled some doors. I've seen some of those thousand dollar plus doors that were no better than normal exterior doors; this means they can be removed with a flatbar or large screwdriver in less than a minute. Many can just be lifted straight off after taking off the top board. Even the most expensive are worthless if not installed with safety in mind. It really doesn't matter how strong the door is if the framing was never done right in the first place. Then if they aren't hung right, they are a fire deathtrap waiting to happen.

I took a security door off inside an old bank (being re-purposed as a theater) in less than thirty seconds with a pocket multi-tool and strong arms. It was never installed correctly, or had been re-installed incorrectly at some point.

None of this should be taken as an argument against good doors and windows.

 

[arthwollipot]

Getting back to the idea of violent revolution - someone on another forum recently posted this in response to a completely different discussion, and I thought it would be appropriate to re-post here:

The fetishization of violent uprising in US founding mythology is one of the dumbest and most dangerous things in American culture. This obsession with phantoms of government tyranny and romantic notions about glorious revolutions is a sickness which may some day destroy the republic.

Needless to say, I completely agree with this sentiment.

 

[sadhatter]

Getting back to the idea of violent revolution - someone on another forum recently posted this in response to a completely different discussion, and I thought it would be appropriate to re-post here:



Needless to say, I completely agree with this sentiment.

Care to explain how you believe this will happen?

 

[BStrong]

And if you're renting, you're just **** out of luck.

Plus you have to have a good level of knowledge when buying these things, and have a contractor you really trust. I've installed some doors and uninstalled some doors. I've seen some of those thousand dollar plus doors that were no better than normal exterior doors; this means they can be removed with a flatbar or large screwdriver in less than a minute. Many can just be lifted straight off after taking off the top board. Even the most expensive are worthless if not installed with safety in mind. It really doesn't matter how strong the door is if the framing was never done right in the first place. Then if they aren't hung right, they are a fire deathtrap waiting to happen.

I took a security door off inside an old bank (being re-purposed as a theater) in less than thirty seconds with a pocket multi-tool and strong arms. It was never installed correctly, or had been re-installed incorrectly at some point.

None of this should be taken as an argument against good doors and windows.

Bingo.

I've seen installs that were simply pathetic. There are as many crooked/incompetent contractors as stars in the sky, and just because a guy will give you a quote doesn't mean he's qualified to do the job.

It took three day of work by my friend, one of his employees and myself to do the install on my door and window, and they weren't 8 hour days either.

Had I had to pay for the job it would have been over 2K.

 

[applecorped]

Bingo.

I've seen installs that were simply pathetic. There are as many crooked/incompetent contractors as stars in the sky, and just because a guy will give you a quote doesn't mean he's qualified to do the job.

It took three day of work by my friend, one of his employees and myself to do the install on my door and window, and they weren't 8 hour days either.

Had I had to pay for the job it would have been over 2K.

Was a gun involved?

 

[tyr_13]

Was a gun involved?

Kinda.


Although I can't speak for BStrong.

 

[Ranb]

Care to explain how you believe this will happen?

Well, when arth has a gun, everything looks like a target. I'm certain any explanation given will seem strange.

 

[BStrong]

Was a gun involved?

Only tangentially.

The fact that the contractor was married to one sister and I had lived with the other made us victims of the same crime, and we had known each other for longer than we knew the girls - made for interesting things when they were pissed at each other and we carried on w/o getting involved in their drama.

 

[arthwollipot]

Care to explain how you believe this will happen?

Will happen? How do you get from may happen, which is what the quoted statement says, to will happen, which it does not?

But it can hardly take a great deal of imagination to consider how an uprising by an armed minority could destroy the government of the day. It's happened time and again in the past, not least in your own armed uprising against the British colonial rule, which I believe to be the source of the American "fetishization" of the idea of armed rebellion against the government.