Proof of Immortality III

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Neither here nor in the Shroud thread has Jabba explicitly said he wants to prove Christian tenets. He has alluded enough times to a Christian formulation of various mysticisms to make that a tenable speculation, but he seems interested in avoiding being corralled to that.



That's odd. Then the Shroud is reduced to what? If it's not evidence of the divinity of Jesus, then is it just an example of one time one guy appeared to survive death?

Jabba's belief system, though not entirely on topic, would be fascinating to learn.
 
Mojo,
- You're right. I got confused. OOFLam implies materialism.

Mojo,
- I think this must be based upon my earlier confusion...

Mojo,
- I just should have started with that softened claim -- it's really a better expression of my position. How could I equivocate? What would I say?

Lot of confusion here Jabba. Are you having trouble with your "holistic thinking" perhaps?
 
I'm not insulting, I'm counter-insulting.

Meaningless

. In order for this to hold, JoeBentley must hold that said group of people are a perfect personification of the concept of skepticism. If that's not arrogance, then I don't know what is.

Straw man


You won't get far with an explanation that is little more than putting your words in an other's mouth.

Thanks for answering my question thought. Back to lurking.
 
Straw man

:rolleyes:

Prove it.

You won't get far with an explanation that is little more than putting your words in an other's mouth.

You keep saying this "you won't get far" kind of stuff as if this is somehow a negative thing. I don't get far with tin-foil hat people either, I don't consider that a negative thing either.
 
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Dave,
H is OOFLam, which basically implies that the self is entirely physical.
- And, we are, indeed, at least close to Mt Rainier again. I think that your MT Rainier issue is much the same issue as my P(E|H) issue -- if the likelihood of my existence is an appropriate entry for P(E|H) in the posterior evaluation of OOFLam, the likelihood of Mt Rainier should be an appropriate entry for P(E|H) in the posterior evaluation of the scientific model.

The way you have defined it, yes.

But mortality includes scenarios in which the self is immaterial but has a finite lifetime. You are trying to prove immortality by disproving H. Do you see your problem?
Mojo,
- H does include that scenario/possibility -- but so far, I don't see how that's a problem.
 
H does include that scenario/possibility -- but so far, I don't see how that's a problem.

Really? You can't see the problem? You're using materiality versus immateriality as a proxy for mortality and immortality. You have immateriality on both sides of your H/~H division. You're equivocating between two concepts so that you can conflate or sever them at will to fuzz your argument. And your critics have told you about this problem many times.
 
Essentially the "math" is "X=Y" as long as X is "Whatever I want it to be" and Y is "Whatever I want it to be."

Jabbas arguments are so vague and meaningless they prove everything and nothing. He's put an undefined (or defined at whim) variable on both sides of an equation.
 
Mojo,
- H does include that scenario/possibility -- but so far, I don't see how that's a problem.


No, you have defined H as the materialist hypothesis under which consciousness is the result of brain processes. Hypotheses including an immaterial self are part of ~H as you have defined it, even those scenarios under which the "self" has a finite duration.
 
No, you have defined H as the materialist hypothesis under which consciousness is the result of brain processes. Hypotheses including an immaterial self are part of ~H as you have defined it, even those scenarios under which the "self" has a finite duration.


H also includes a deterministic, clockwork universe in which consciousness is a property of a neurological process. Since one can't know the odds of living in a deterministic v. non-deterministic universe, one cannot assign odds to the chance of one's existence therein. It's somewhere between "a possible result expected by the process" and "certain."
 
H also includes a deterministic, clockwork universe in which consciousness is a property of a neurological process. Since one can't know the odds of living in a deterministic v. non-deterministic universe, one cannot assign odds to the chance of one's existence therein. It's somewhere between "a possible result expected by the process" and "certain."


Actually, it isn't clear whether or not H includes such a universe; it depends in how Jabba is defining H at the particular time. But Whether such a universe is included in H or not, Jabba's argument is fatally messed up, for the reasons outlined above.
 
Mojo,
- H does include that scenario/possibility -- but so far, I don't see how that's a problem.

No, you have defined H as the materialist hypothesis under which consciousness is the result of brain processes. Hypotheses including an immaterial self are part of ~H as you have defined it, even those scenarios under which the "self" has a finite duration.
Mojo,
- This is why I decided to deal with OOFLam first. The virtual proof of immortality depends upon the virtual disproof of OOFLam. If I can show that OOFLam is most likely wrong, the rest should be relatively easy. That's because the specific variations included under ~OOFLam that allow for a finite life have prior probabilities, in my opinion, of virtually zero.
 
Mojo,
- This is why I decided to deal with OOFLam first. The virtual proof of immortality depends upon the virtual disproof of OOFLam. If I can show that OOFLam is most likely wrong, the rest should be relatively easy. That's because the specific variations included under ~OOFLam that allow for a finite life have prior probabilities, in my opinion, of virtually zero.
VIRTUALLY (adv.) (from latin virtu)
1. In no way whatsoever. I have virtually proven immortality.
2. Having been built in cyberspace out of nothing; having no weight or meaning in reality. I have virtually proven immortality.
 
What is a "virtual proof?" Can you virtually, as in not quite, prove something in math?

If your proof is not definitive, that is, demonstrably correct, can you argue that, "Yeah, well, I almost proved it! Almost is just as good as all the way! You can't say it isn't, and anyhow you're not holistic! Bleah!"

Really, my knowledge stops well short of the different kinds (or styles) of proof in mathematics. Is Jabba's style legitimate?
 
Mojo,
- This is why I decided to deal with OOFLam first. The virtual proof of immortality depends upon the virtual disproof of OOFLam. If I can show that OOFLam is most likely wrong, the rest should be relatively easy. That's because the specific variations included under ~OOFLam that allow for a finite life have prior probabilities, in my opinion, of virtually zero.


aaaaaannnnnd back to page 1 of this thread.
 
Mojo,
- This is why I decided to deal with OOFLam first. The virtual proof of immortality depends upon the virtual disproof of OOFLam. If I can show that OOFLam is most likely wrong, the rest should be relatively easy. That's because the specific variations included under ~OOFLam that allow for a finite life have prior probabilities, in my opinion, of virtually zero.


That would be assuming the desired result from the get-go. Makes reaching the final conclusion much easier.
 
This is why I decided to deal with OOFLam first.

I don't believe you.

You have constructed this proof in the same false-dilemma fashion as you have every other proof you have proffered in this forum, and in the same false-dilemma fashion as nearly every fringe claimant does in all genres of fringe argumentation. You're doing it not because it was an acceptable way to organize your proof. You're doing it because it's the standard way among fringe claimants to pretend to have proven something for which they have absolutely no evidence, by no more than suggesting that some straw-man alternative is not viable.

You're dealing a false-dilemma pseudo-proof because you figured out long ago that the required direct proof for your claim is impossible. Now you're just trying to disguise the false dilemma with a lot of math you hope to quibble over until your critics get tired of your intransigence and leave you with the illusion of self-justification.

The virtual proof of immortality depends upon the virtual disproof of OOFLam.

No. The falsity of one finite life would be a consequence of an eventual proof of immortality. Do not commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

If I can show that OOFLam is most likely wrong, the rest should be relatively easy.

This doesn't fix your problem. You equivocate what OOFLAM and not-OOFLAM are, and what the scientific hypothesis of materialism is. You can't properly partition the set of available hypothesis and remain consistent in that partitioning throughout your argument. No amount of silly acronyms or repetition of your proposal fixes this. You are attempting a mathematical proof, and your inability to specify the various hypotheses with mathematical precision and consistency is immediately fatal.

The statement "only one finite life at most" is largely meaningless. You derived it merely by converting the grab-bag of dissimilar hypotheses, any one of which would satisfy your desire to be immortal in some way. Pretending to have disproven that statement doesn't establish which, if any, of the other hypotheses can hold. It just tickles the false dilemma at the rotten core of your argument.

The formulation of H as the scientific materialism explanation for the manifestation of the self is reasonably meaningful, but pretending to have disproven it doesn't establish either immaterialism or immortality. Again, it just tickles the false dilemma.

That's because the specific variations included under ~OOFLam that allow for a finite life have prior probabilities, in my opinion, of virtually zero.

Irrelevant at best, completely made-up at worst. Our itinerant statisticians have assured us that you can make up whatever priors to you want, so long as the likelihoods are not in dispute. What you're trying to do here is jump ahead of the proof and use your prior probabilities to inform the propriety of your overall approach, specifically to make it seem like a two-step proof where you prove a softer claim justifies jumping to the hard claim with "relative[] eas[e]." This is tantamount to begging the question. You're adopting a particular formulation of a proof solely because your guesswork suggests it will make your next step easier, not because it actually proves anything.
 
What is a "virtual proof?" Can you virtually, as in not quite, prove something in math?

If your proof is not definitive, that is, demonstrably correct, can you argue that, "Yeah, well, I almost proved it! Almost is just as good as all the way! You can't say it isn't, and anyhow you're not holistic! Bleah!"

Really, my knowledge stops well short of the different kinds (or styles) of proof in mathematics. Is Jabba's style legitimate?


:notm
 
Mojo,
- This is why I decided to deal with OOFLam first. The virtual proof of immortality depends upon the virtual disproof of OOFLam. If I can show that OOFLam is most likely wrong, the rest should be relatively easy. That's because the specific variations included under ~OOFLam that allow for a finite life have prior probabilities, in my opinion, of virtually zero.


"Specific variations"? ~H has to include all possible variations, including all those that nobody, including you, has thought of. You can't possibly know about the probability of all of possibilities.

And, for example, the clockwork universe has to go in one or the other. You are arguing that the likelihood of a hypothesis being true is proportionate to the likelihood of your existence under it.* Whichever side of your formula you put the clockwork universe on you are sunk. Either H is a mixed bag of hypotheses with likelihood of your existence ranging from zero to one, or ~H includes at least one hypothesis in which you have a finite lifetime and which is, by your own argument, likely to be true.

You might have an easier time of it if you drop the argument by false dilemma.


*Which is wrong, but never mind that at the moment.
 
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I think I knew that, actually


So if "virtual proof" is meaningless, then what & hell is this [don't try to fool the nannybot] thread about? Have all those electrons perished for nothing?

Are we really concerning ourselves with a 60-year-old flash of neurons in somebody's head that conviced him, and apparently (or virtually?) still convinces him, that he's going to live forever?

On the road to Damascus, Maryland, maybe? Ohio? Oregon? In a galaxy some distance away?

It is to go PSHITTT!
 
No, you have defined H as the materialist hypothesis under which consciousness is the result of brain pd frocesses. Hypotheses including an immaterial self are part of ~H as you have defined it, even those scenarios under which the "self" has a finite duration.

H also includes a deterministic, clockwork universe in which consciousness is a property of a neurological process. Since one can't know the odds of living in a deterministic v. non-deterministic universe, one cannot assign odds to the chance of one's existence therein. It's somewhere between "a possible result expected by the process" and "certain."
LL,
- Both H and ~H include the deterministic possibility, but I think that I have 2 answers that respond to your reservation and do apply to both scenarios (determinism and personal freedom).
1) Probability is simply a statement about the completeness of our knowledge -- there is no underlying absolute. Consequently, it doesn't matter whether our universe is deterministic or not.
2) Even if our universe is deterministic, what is the likelihood (given OOFLam) that the big bang (or singularity, or whatever) would have the necessary ingredients to produce me, and to produce me between 1942 and, say, 2042?
- I assume that these attempts to explain my reasoning will not pass muster, but hopefully they can start the process...
 
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