Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Hellmann is toast, brown bread, zippo. Massei and Nencini are not expunged. Marasca upheld the incriminating facts they found at trial.

Rejecting the DNA evidence without remission to trial level was illegal.

Sigh.

Marasca annulled Nencini because the facts Nencini considered did not, in the law, justify a conviction. Nencini, according to Marasca, substituted (illegally) his hunches for the evidence. It is illegal in Italy for a judge to substitute a hunch for contradictory evidence. Please read the Marasca report instead of cutting and pasting from TJMK.

Therefore according to subsequent judges Marasca had exonerated the kids.
 
Hellmann is toast, brown bread, zippo. Massei and Nencini are not expunged. Marasca upheld the incriminating facts they found at trial.

Rejecting the DNA evidence without remission to trial level was illegal.


You don't know what you're talking about :thumbsup::D
 
Then I strongly suggest you stop making false claims about what I've said if you hate wasting time. Do you honestly expect to make false accusations and not be challenged about them? Hmm....maybe you do.

As for wasting time, how long did it take to write your dog trial post? But I agree about wasting time which is why I didn't bother to read past the first couple lines.


I was going to make this point: that ludicrous (and, frankly, toe-curlingly embarrassing) dog-trial "scene" was one of the more colossal wastes of time I've come across in the recent past. Well, I mean I DID laugh at it.... but not in the way in which the author intended.
 
Hellmann didn't find them guilty. Massei and Nencini were also annulled. Remember?


It's amusing, isn't it, how selective pro-guilt commentators tend to be with their interpretations....

(Oh, and Vixen threw in a fundamental misinterpretation of the true cause and effect of Magna Carta as well. Not that this should surprise me :) )
 
Lovely piece of fantasy. Unfortunately for you, complete and utter rot! Both Marasca and Bruno have been taken off the judiciary so haven't created any work for themselves at all. Actually.


Oh dear.

1) Neither Marasca nor Bruni has been "taken off the judiciary". Or would you like to present evidence that either or both have been "taken off"? No? Thought not.

2) What part of the "would have" do you not understand? My supposition is that they didn't create any judicial dissonance precisely so that they would not have made extra work for themselves.
 
Hellmann is toast, brown bread, zippo. Massei and Nencini are not expunged. Marasca upheld the incriminating facts they found at trial.

Rejecting the DNA evidence without remission to trial level was illegal.

Marasca upheld "judicial truths" already confirmed by previous ISCs.

Provide evidence that "Rejecting the DNA evidence without remission to trial level was illegal." Evidence from the Italy legal code and not just someone from TJMK, PMF or TMOMK proclaiming it so. If it was illegal, then why has there been no action against it in the last year and a half?
 
Marasca upheld "judicial truths" already confirmed by previous ISCs.

Provide evidence that "Rejecting the DNA evidence without remission to trial level was illegal." Evidence from the Italy legal code and not just someone from TJMK, PMF or TMOMK proclaiming it so. If it was illegal, then why has there been no action against it in the last year and a half?


Hahaha remember the weeks and months after the Marasca verdicts, when frothing loons bristling with faux-authority were proclaiming loudly and constantly that the SC had acted illegally and it was only a matter of time before this incompetence/corruption was exposed for what it was.......

Those were the days, eh...?! :p
 
Hahaha remember the weeks and months after the Marasca verdicts, when frothing loons bristling with faux-authority were proclaiming loudly and constantly that the SC had acted illegally and it was only a matter of time before this incompetence/corruption was exposed for what it was.......

Those were the days, eh...?! :p

Well, to be fair, LJ, the Italian justice system does work slowly. I'm sure, unbeknownst to us but known to special secret sources that cannot be revealed, the gears are in motion. By this time next year, Marasca and his co-judges will have been arrested for taking bribes from G-M and the Masons.:D
 
Well, to be fair, LJ, the Italian justice system does work slowly. I'm sure, unbeknownst to us but known to special secret sources that cannot be revealed, the gears are in motion. By this time next year, Marasca and his co-judges will have been arrested for taking bribes from G-M and the Masons.:D


At least Hellmann looks like he's got away with his "bribery Ferrari" :D
 
Marasca upheld "judicial truths" already confirmed by previous ISCs.

Provide evidence that "Rejecting the DNA evidence without remission to trial level was illegal." Evidence from the Italy legal code and not just someone from TJMK, PMF or TMOMK proclaiming it so. If it was illegal, then why has there been no action against it in the last year and a half?

Mike1711 has clarified that rather than upholding them, the Marasca court was bound by them. That's a differing kettle of fish. To unbind those judicial truths required a more involved process, probably requiring the Unified Section of the ISC. As Luca Cheli observed, the Marasca panel was exonerating the pair anyway, so why make life more difficult for the courts?
 
That's why we have a trial, so that everyman may have the opportunity to defend himself and to be judged by his peers. We had a Magna Carta in England to make it clear to King John of citizens' rights.
The pair had a trial, albeit n Italy, and I don't accept the underlying assumption that Italian justice is somehow inferior to the American brand.

Each of these trials (in Italy, it extends to the appeal court on limited issues, allowed to be appealed) found the kids 'Guilty'. As charged.

This is false. Magna Carta had nothing to do with "citizens' rights". It was concerned strictly with the relationship between the monarch and barons. Neither side gave two hoops for "citizens' rights" in 1215.
 
Mike1711 has clarified that rather than upholding them, the Marasca court was bound by them. That's a differing kettle of fish. To unbind those judicial truths required a more involved process, probably requiring the Unified Section of the ISC. As Luca Cheli observed, the Marasca panel was exonerating the pair anyway, so why make life more difficult for the courts?

True, Bill. "Bound by" is more accurate than "upheld".
 
Mike1711 has clarified that rather than upholding them, the Marasca court was bound by them. That's a differing kettle of fish. To unbind those judicial truths required a more involved process, probably requiring the Unified Section of the ISC. As Luca Cheli observed, the Marasca panel was exonerating the pair anyway, so why make life more difficult for the courts?


Exactly. The Marasca panel could have issued contradictory findings in its verdict, but that would almost certainly have triggered all sorts of complex judicial processes, including the very strong likelihood of the need to re-open Guede's case and Knox's case for criminal slander. Thus, IMO, the Marasca panel chose the "easy" route - while ensuring that its overriding job, the annulment of the murder-related convictions for Knox and Sollecito, was properly accomplished.

This also probably explains the sections of the Marasca motivations report which dives into hypothetical ("even if it was proven that more than one person committed the murder...." etc), which read like a conscious decision to sidestep the need to contradict previous SC findings. The bulk of the Marasca report makes it really very clear that not only does the Marasca panel deem that there's no evidence against Knox/Sollecito, it also believes that neither Knox nor Sollecito participated in any way (as evidenced, for example, by its derisory discussions of the practical impossibility of Knox/Sollecito either failing to leave any forensic trace of themselves at the murder scene or (more risibly still) being able to selectively clean away their own forensic traces while leaving those of Guede and Kercher).

I suspect that the judges on the Marasca SC panel, if asked what they believe factually happened, would say that the evidence - and lack of evidence - supports (and is entirely consistent with) Guede breaking in through Romanelli's window, entering a confrontation with Kercher inside the cottage, and assaulting/murdering her on his own before conducting a limited clean-up of himself and the scene and departing the cottage via the front door. But again, it needs to be pointed out that the SOLE remit of the Marasca SC panel was to assess the case (or lack of a case) against Knox and Sollecito. In that context, once it deemed - correctly - that there was zero credible, reliable evidence of Knox's/Sollecito's participation in the murder (and that the Massei/Nencini courts were unlawfully wrong to convict on the basis of fundamentally flawed and non-probative evidence/testimony), its job was done. It categorically was not the Marasca panel's job to give any sort of ruling on what factually might have happened, beyond ruling that Knox and Sollecito were not, in its judgement, involved.
 
This is false. Magna Carta had nothing to do with "citizens' rights". It was concerned strictly with the relationship between the monarch and barons. Neither side gave two hoops for "citizens' rights" in 1215.


Yes. It's a fundamental misconception that Magna Carta had anything to do with the rights of the common citizen. But to be fair, this error is regularly propagated by mainstream media outlets. All well-informed people know otherwise, of course...... :p
 
This is false. Magna Carta had nothing to do with "citizens' rights". It was concerned strictly with the relationship between the monarch and barons. Neither side gave two hoops for "citizens' rights" in 1215.

Where do you think the USA got its inspiration for the Declaration of Independence from? Whilst the UK has no written constitution, the Magna Carta is seen as the original Bill of Rights. BTW I went to see the recent Magna Carta exhibition at the British Library twice.

And it's 'hoots', not 'hoops'.
 
Yes. It's a fundamental misconception that Magna Carta had anything to do with the rights of the common citizen. But to be fair, this error is regularly propagated by mainstream media outlets. All well-informed people know otherwise, of course...... :p

Cue frantic googling by LondonJohn to find props for his argument.
 
Cue frantic googling by LondonJohn to find props for his argument.


Ummm. No. It's called knowledge and understanding.

However, it would well behove you to do some research - whether via Google or the British Library or elsewhere - before writing factually incorrect statements about the Magna Carta :)
 
Where do you think the USA got its inspiration for the Declaration of Independence from? Whilst the UK has no written constitution, the Magna Carta is seen as the original Bill of Rights. BTW I went to see the recent Magna Carta exhibition at the British Library twice.

And it's 'hoots', not 'hoops'.


Well you certainly didn't concentrate very much while you were there then. Magna Carta was specifically, and explicitly, a contract demand between barons (and major landholders), and the King, in order to make it impossible for the King to act arbitrarily against the barons, especially in his demands for feudal payments, and his imprisonment of barons who didn't pay what he demanded (or simply barons whom he didn't like). The common citizens still had very few rights post Magna Carta, and nothing written in Magna Carta had any implications for the common person*.

And your inability to understand the real significance and meaning of Magna Carta also perhaps helps to explain why you misunderstand so much in respect of the Knox/Sollecito trials process. I'm also not keen for this thread to drift into a bigger discussion of Magna Carta, so I won't be writing about it again here.

* ETA: Outside of the small number of clauses which the barons included purely because certain abuses of the common people by the King and his agents were disadvantageous to the barons themselves......
 
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Where do you think the USA got its inspiration for the Declaration of Independence from? Whilst the UK has no written constitution, the Magna Carta is seen as the original Bill of Rights. BTW I went to see the recent Magna Carta exhibition at the British Library twice.

And it's 'hoots', not 'hoops'.

Yes, it is. But I was "in a rush". Hoots!

They got it from the interpretations that had evolved over the centuries that the Magna Carta had anything to do with the rights of the people. It didn't. It was strictly concerned with the rights of the barons and "free people" which was made up of a very small portion of Englishmen. Serfs/villeins made up, by far, the largest group of people in 1215. They were not "free men" and were not protected by the Magna Carta.

I agree with LJ. I'm not going to get into this with you as I know it will be futile.
 
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Well you certainly didn't concentrate very much while you were there then. Magna Carta was specifically, and explicitly, a contract demand between barons (and major landholders), and the King, in order to make it impossible for the King to act arbitrarily against the barons, especially in his demands for feudal payments, and his imprisonment of barons who didn't pay what he demanded (or simply barons whom he didn't like). The common citizens still had very few rights post Magna Carta, and nothing written in Magna Carta had any implications for the common person*.

And your inability to understand the real significance and meaning of Magna Carta also perhaps helps to explain why you misunderstand so much in respect of the Knox/Sollecito trials process. I'm also not keen for this thread to drift into a bigger discussion of Magna Carta, so I won't be writing about it again here.

* ETA: Outside of the small number of clauses which the barons included purely because certain abuses of the common people by the King and his agents were disadvantageous to the barons themselves......

Oh dear.

He took me at my word.
 
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