Baltimore to ban grades lower than 50%?

[fuelair]

I had no problem with math. English literature was my nemesis - I couldn't write a passable essay or analyze a poem if someone put a gun to my head...

It doesn't take much to 'miss the boat'. I remember the first time I tried to use paragraphs in a story. The teacher told me I couldn't do that because she hadn't taught us how to yet. Unfortunately I must have been sick the day she gave that lesson, with the result that years later I still couldn't do paragraphs because it was stuck in my mind that I didn't know how...

The subjects I did best in were those that had textbooks. I would teach myself and then reinforce that learning in class. Unfortunately some subjects didn't have textbooks...

For young students it's not an easy concept to grasp. I remember wondering why it had to be 'X'. Couldn't you use some other letter, or even a whole word? Math is so confusing...

The 'best' math teacher I had was a lazy prick. He would just tell us what lessons to do and leave the classroom. Then the good students (like me) would teach the poor students. This was great because we could get on with doing the work without distractions, the poor students actually began to understand math, the 'teacher' got to enjoy lots of free time, and we didn't have to put up with him. Everyone was happy!

In another subject I was chastised for trying to help other students. "You're spoiling your chance to be top of the class!"

But hey, that was over 40 years ago! Now we have the Internet, Google, Wikipedia. No need for textbooks and classrooms, the kids can learn it all online...

I was fortunate - I never gave a flying fece if I was top of the class!!!!!

 

[psionl0]

“The power of the zero is extremely powerful and frankly hurtful to a student," Roberts said.

http://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/...more-co-public-schools-revises-grading-system

I wonder how long it will be before educators decide that the power of fifty will have the same effect.

 

[Minoosh]

I had no problem with math. English literature was my nemesis - I couldn't write a passable essay or analyze a poem if someone put a gun to my head...

Writing an essay is a legitimate educational goal, but there's no reason other than tradition to tie it to English literature. It's probably ruined English literature for a lot of people.

For young students it's not an easy concept to grasp. I remember wondering why it had to be 'X'. Couldn't you use some other letter, or even a whole word? Math is so confusing...

It could be any letter or word. At the early level it's often n for "number." At some point students do have to take a conceptual leap to understand what a variable is. The amount of money I make depends on how many hours I work, etc. I don't know how to move them forward without that. And I don't mean forward into calculus, but how to move them forward in reasoning.

The 'best' math teacher I had was a lazy prick. He would just tell us what lessons to do and leave the classroom. Then the good students (like me) would teach the poor students. This was great because we could get on with doing the work without distractions, the poor students actually began to understand math, the 'teacher' got to enjoy lots of free time, and we didn't have to put up with him. Everyone was happy!

What do you mean by "work without distractions"? Without the intrusive presence of the teacher? Except for the fact that teachers are no longer allowed to leave the room, this sounds like a typical class structure where I work. The only problem is sometimes a lot of copying goes on.

But hey, that was over 40 years ago! Now we have the Internet, Google, Wikipedia. No need for textbooks and classrooms, the kids can learn it all online...

I think this is a good direction to go in, but it's not reality right now.

I wonder how long it will be before educators decide that the power of fifty will have the same effect.

The power of 50 won't have the same effect, mathematically. I kind of see the rationale for the 50 thing.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

What do you mean by "work without distractions"? Without the intrusive presence of the teacher?

Yes. For some of us the teacher was just a distraction holding us back from learning at the pace we were capable of.

The amount of money I make depends on how many hours I work, etc. I don't know how to move them forward without that.

Some aren't going to get it no matter how hard you try, but others just need some help. The problem is you have a classroom full of students and can't afford to hold them back while you work with the stragglers. So the answer is:- spend your time on those that need it, and let the rest help themselves.

I think this is a good direction to go in, but it's not reality right now.

But it's the 21st century! By now we were supposed to have spaceships that landed vertically, jet powered hover-boards, radio telephones small enough to fit in your pocket, a worldwide network of powerful computers with a terminal in every home - and virtual classrooms so students didn't need to go to school. I guess some things are just too 'out there' even for 21st century technology...

 

[Minoosh]

Some aren't going to get it no matter how hard you try, but others just need some help. The problem is you have a classroom full of students and can't afford to hold them back while you work with the stragglers.

My job is to work with the stragglers, and as you say some of them will never get it. I'll be held accountable for that, but I also don't have to manage 35 students at a time. Well, I do when I sub, but that's not every day.

But it's the 21st century! By now we were supposed to have spaceships that landed vertically, jet powered hover-boards, radio telephones small enough to fit in your pocket, a worldwide network of powerful computers with a terminal in every home - and virtual classrooms so students didn't need to go to school. I guess some things are just too 'out there' even for 21st century technology...

It's not the technology. It's partly just the reality of child care: Someone has to mind the kids while they work on computers. Also teachers as a group are probably a bit wary of being seen as glorified babysitters. Personally I don't mind it but I've made a choice to work below my certification level. For a full-time teacher, the workload approaches infinity.

Teacher time in classroom in Shanghai: 12 hours a week. The rest of the time is spent intensely honing lessons. At my school some teachers do 30 hours a week. I don't know who's taking up the slack in Shanghai. Parents, maybe.

 

[fuelair]

This reminds me of Khan Academy, look it up - for elementary through college in most subjects!!! If you or the kids are having trouble in a subject, check to see if they have it - and they likely will - and it is free!!!!!!!!! And highly regarded!!!!!




https://www.khanacademy.org/

 

[Minoosh]

This reminds me of Khan Academy, look it up - for elementary through college in most subjects!!! If you or the kids are having trouble in a subject, check to see if they have it - and they likely will - and it is free!!!!!!!!! And highly regarded!!!!!




https://www.khanacademy.org/

Khan Academy is awesome. My biggest struggle is to getting them to use scratch paper while on Khan Academy. They think if the can't do it "in their heads" they can't do it at all. (Though you are doing it in your head even with scratch paper).

That, and they are pretty shifty about getting onto Facebook when it suits them. I'm surprised FB is still relevant to them.

 

[fuelair]

Khan Academy is awesome. My biggest struggle is to getting them to use scratch paper while on Khan Academy. They think if the can't do it "in their heads" they can't do it at all. (Though you are doing it in your head even with scratch paper).

That, and they are pretty shifty about getting onto Facebook when it suits them. I'm surprised FB is still relevant to them.

FB is still used by lot's of people though a migration to other sources has been going on for while . Partly, I believe, because some sources do not print your real name on what you post. Kid's often know about the "come back to haunt you thing" - as do most adults.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I wonder how long it will be before educators decide that the power of fifty will have the same effect.

The power of 50 won't have the same effect, mathematically. I kind of see the rationale for the 50 thing.

Mathematically it doesn't have the same effect... but sometimes I still think it would be the right way to go.

I'm not a teacher. I wasn't a great student in primary & secondary school, but also not bad. I didn't really have any subjects that I was bad at (except Physical Education), only a few that I disliked.

I always found it borderline unfair when a class had too much emphasis on attendance or homework. To me, the concept of school is to learn. If I can do that, and can demonstrate my understanding of the material, what's the point of taking off grades because I was out sick or went on a family vacation?

But it's not a very cut-and-dried situation either.

If a kid ends up going into academia, the attendance aspect has virtually no meaning... but the doing your work and showing your steps part is paramount. Demonstrable understanding of the subject mater is also vital. So maybe doing your homework matters here, in addition to test taking.

If a kid goes into a professional job, attendance matters somewhat, but getting your job done is essential. In general a salaried employee in a professional role is granted a fair bit of leeway with respect to "effort" made, so long as they met their obligations and get the job done. To me this is more analogous to test-taking than anything else.

If a kid ends up going into an unskilled hourly profession, on the other hand... being able to take tests has no value. But showing up on time, reliably, and doing their work is what it's all about. That would argue for attendance, tardiness, and homework as opposed to tests.

Shouldn't schooling prepare a kid for any of those eventualities?

I think if it were up to me, I would lean toward increasing the percentage of final grade that tests account for... but let the grade on those tests ride as is. This if a kid sits down and makes a pretty picture with their scantron, they get a zero. Make attendance a minimal part of the grade, perhaps only coming in to play if more than a specified number of days are missed... but also something that can be addressed with extra credit or is negated for high scores on tests. Make homework be a separate rubric, I'm thinking maybe set it to count for 20% of the total grade, but such that only 75% of the homework needs to be completed with passing grades to get "full" credit for homework.

If set up well, a student could accomplish a passing grade with a broad combination of efforts, but perhaps only earn an A for definite work. But it would also make it difficult to fail a class unless the kid just literally does nothing. It could give them ample opportunity to achieve reasonable grades in a way that would play in to a variety of career aspirations.

 

[psionl0]

The power of 50 won't have the same effect, mathematically. I kind of see the rationale for the 50 thing.

Of course it will. If 50 becomes the new zero then the passing mark will also have to go up (unless you want to pass anybody who simply puts their name on the roll which would make the course meaningless).

There are two ways to indicate student results that don't require showing them their raw scores:

• Give each student a grade depending on how well their score compared with that of their other class mates.
• Scale each score upwards or downwards as required so that all of the scores are shoehorned into some pre-defined normal distribution.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Of course it will. If 50 becomes the new zero then the passing mark will also have to go up (unless you want to pass anybody who simply puts their name on the roll which would make the course meaningless).

There are two ways to indicate student results that don't require showing them their raw scores:

• Give each student a grade depending on how well their score compared with that of their other class mates.
• Scale each score upwards or downwards as required so that all of the scores are shoehorned into some pre-defined normal distribution.

I think that you're missing the point of setting a floor of 50 for grades. Not only may it be damaging to the student's self-esteem if they receive a zero, but it is actually numerically damaging to their overall grade if they received a zero.

 

[fuelair]

Mathematically it doesn't have the same effect... but sometimes I still think it would be the right way to go.

I'm not a teacher. I wasn't a great student in primary & secondary school, but also not bad. I didn't really have any subjects that I was bad at (except Physical Education), only a few that I disliked.

I always found it borderline unfair when a class had too much emphasis on attendance or homework. To me, the concept of school is to learn. If I can do that, and can demonstrate my understanding of the material, what's the point of taking off grades because I was out sick or went on a family vacation?

But it's not a very cut-and-dried situation either.

If a kid ends up going into academia, the attendance aspect has virtually no meaning... but the doing your work and showing your steps part is paramount. Demonstrable understanding of the subject mater is also vital. So maybe doing your homework matters here, in addition to test taking.

If a kid goes into a professional job, attendance matters somewhat, but getting your job done is essential. In general a salaried employee in a professional role is granted a fair bit of leeway with respect to "effort" made, so long as they met their obligations and get the job done. To me this is more analogous to test-taking than anything else.

If a kid ends up going into an unskilled hourly profession, on the other hand... being able to take tests has no value. But showing up on time, reliably, and doing their work is what it's all about. That would argue for attendance, tardiness, and homework as opposed to tests.

Shouldn't schooling prepare a kid for any of those eventualities?

I think if it were up to me, I would lean toward increasing the percentage of final grade that tests account for... but let the grade on those tests ride as is. This if a kid sits down and makes a pretty picture with their scantron, they get a zero. Make attendance a minimal part of the grade, perhaps only coming in to play if more than a specified number of days are missed... but also something that can be addressed with extra credit or is negated for high scores on tests. Make homework be a separate rubric, I'm thinking maybe set it to count for 20% of the total grade, but such that only 75% of the homework needs to be completed with passing grades to get "full" credit for homework.

If set up well, a student could accomplish a passing grade with a broad combination of efforts, but perhaps only earn an A for definite work. But it would also make it difficult to fail a class unless the kid just literally does nothing. It could give them ample opportunity to achieve reasonable grades in a way that would play in to a variety of career aspirations.

Many systems get at least part of their funding based on student/hours (or days) in class and thus will be penalized financially if they have a lot of absenteeism . Most systems have a set cutoff number of days out before a student will not pass a semester/quarter (which/what/ever) due to lack of attendance. Some systems (and possibly all) will sometimes recognize a special situation and modify that, but.........

 

[psionl0]

I think that you're missing the point of setting a floor of 50 for grades. Not only may it be damaging to the student's self-esteem if they receive a zero, but it is actually numerically damaging to their overall grade if they received a zero.

I think you don't know what "fifty is the new zero" means.

 

[mijopaalmc]

I think you don't know what "fifty is the new zero" means.

That's because the illicit is not "fiftyis the new zero":

The school system also now recommends that teachers do not factor homework into overall grades or give students marks below 50%.

While fifty is the lowest grade given, there is nothing insisting that they are going to resale any of the grade between 50 and 100.

 

[fuelair]

That's because the illicit is not "fiftyis the new zero":



While fifty is the lowest grade given, there is nothing insisting that they are going to resale any of the grade between 50 and 100.

 

[mijopaalmc]

"Resale" should read "rescale". From what I understand about how classes are graded and what I remember from being in school myself, the passing grade is usually above 50% by a significant amount. Therefore, raising the lowest grade that can be given to 50% does not change the level one has to achieve to pass the class. It does, however, make it easier for one to pass the class because 50% of the points are already given. However, for people who are struggling with the course material, it is probably not going to help all that much.

The other thing that setting 50% as a floor does not do necessarily is change the intervals over which certain grades are assigned. For instance, a C may still be between 70% and 72.5%.

 

[psionl0]

That's because the illicit is not "fiftyis the new zero":

If the absolute minimum mark is 50% then how is this different to 0% in the real scale?

While fifty is the lowest grade given, there is nothing insisting that they are going to resale any of the grade between 50 and 100.

If you can get 50% for doing absolutely nothing then why bother attending at all?

 

[mijopaalmc]

If the absolute minimum mark is 50% then how is this different to 0% in the real scale?

Do you even math, bro?

If you can get 50% for doing absolutely nothing then why bother attending at all?

Did you bother to read my response to fuelair?

 

[JohnnyG]

If the absolute minimum mark is 50% then how is this different to 0% in the real scale?


If you can get 50% for doing absolutely nothing then why bother attending at all?

The scale is not remapped such that 0 becomes 50 (which would make a 50 get remapped to 75). The scale us cut off at 50. This is important when considering the following example:

Assume a class of 25 students with 4 exams throughout the semester and each exam has an average score of 75%. On the first exam one student for some reason gets a 0. The best that student can possibly do is 75% if they get perfect scores on all three remaining exams. More realistically, if they get an above average score of 80% on each, they will end up with a final score of 60% - likely a poor grade.

If, however, that one score is tallied as a 50 rather than 0, getting 80 on the remaining exams gives a final score of 72.5% - a much better score.

ETA: Yes, this will increase the average score slightly - from 75 to 77.

That said, I deplore this concept because it teaches that they get 50% for nothing, especially for high school age kids.

To combat the issue with a single low score deflating the kids chance at a decent grade, I would much rather do a system like I encountered in some college classes. When calculating your final grade, your lowest exam score would be dropped from the average. That means each kid has one "Mulligan" per class without destroying their grade.

 

[psionl0]

Do you even math, bro?

Is that even a thing?

You clearly didn't look at my maths before your first response to my post.

Did you bother to read my response to fuelair?

You mean about giving something for nothing? "It does, however, make it easier for one to pass the class because 50% of the points are already given".