Trump runs for POTUS / Trumped Up! Part V

[Upchurch]

Has anyone asked Trump if he would want the US ships to stop and pull survivors out of the water?

Not my area of expertise, but aren't they legally required to, regardless of the President's wishes?

 

[Stacko]

Not my area of expertise, but aren't they legally required to, regardless of the President's wishes?

It's also against international law to take Iraq's oil, torture, target and kill the families of terrorists, carpet bomb ISIS territory and using nukes first. He doesn't care.

 

[slyjoe]

In this particular case, I don't think attacking Iranian boats which are intentionally getting too close to a US ship is being trigger-happy at all. It is the right policy, and has soon as it is implemented, Iranian boats will keep a proper distance.

But that isn't what he said, is it? It is not the right policy to "blow them out of the water". I wondered how Trump's supporters would defend this. Now I know. Shifting of goalposts.

 

[Meadmaker]

It's also against international law to take Iraq's oil, torture, kill the families of terrorists, carpet bomb ISIS territory and using nukes first. He doesn't care.

He's such a scary dude that way. If he does win, I predict he will be impeached, and convicted. I just can't see him actually following the law for four years.

 

[JPK]

In this particular case, I don't think attacking Iranian boats which are intentionally getting too close to a US ship is being trigger-happy at all. It is the right policy, and has soon as it is implemented, Iranian boats will keep a proper distance.

Are you serious? Do you have any idea how US warships blowing Iranian boats out of the water would look to the world? Hissing a question of power. Our ships can easily sink them and kill all aboard.Do you believe if we did that, that the Iraninas would back off and not do it anymore? Somehow martyrdom would be negated.?

 

[Frank Newgent]

Virtue signalling apparent.

That was bragging, not virtue signaling. Virtue signaling is more subtle. It provides plausible deniability that what you were really doing was bragging.

When dishonest signalling incurs no cost natural selection can be seen to favor cheaters, as long as there's not too many of you.

 

[sunmaster14]

But that isn't what he said, is it? It is not the right policy to "blow them out of the water". I wondered how Trump's supporters would defend this. Now I know. Shifting of goalposts.

How is that different from what I said? Fine, if you want to call it "blow them out of the water" I'm ok with that. Although, technically, you'd need an underwater mine to blow a boat out of the water, and even then it's not so easy. They tried that on Mythbusters and got only partial success.

 

[Ladewig]

I think the Iranian Boat question is a perfect lead-in to my question.

The US sends signals planes near China to monitor radio signals. The US says it is legal, China says it is illegal. The dispute arises from differing interpretations of a treaty. Chinese fighter pilots would see planes like this and try to fly very close to the US propeller-driven aircraft to scare and harass them.

In 2001, a Chinese fighter plane struck the US plane almost flipping it over and sending it into a steep dive with only one working engine. The pilot managed to recover and sent out distress signals. The only runway near enough to use was on a Chinese military base. The Chinese let the plane land, locked up the US crew, and began interrogating them.

US foreign-policy advisors told the president that the situation might be settled peacefully if the US waited and began behind-the-scenes negotiations. The negotiations, which took 10 days, resulted in the US releasing an ambiguously worded letter describing the incident. The Chinese were satisfied and released the crew, but not the plane's black box ( which would have shown that the Chinese version of the story (The US aircraft went out of its way to hit the Chinese aircraft)was incorrect) Most people looked at the resolution as a success.

So, what would Trump have done?

Which is more important: The lives of 24 airmen or respect from the Chinese?

ETA
Hainan Island Incident.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

 

[sunmaster14]

I think the Iranian Boat question is a perfect lead-in to my question.

The US sends signals planes near China to monitor radio signals. The US says it is legal, China says it is illegal. The dispute arises from differing interpretations of a treaty. Chinese fighter pilots would see planes like this and try to fly very close to the US propeller-driven aircraft to scare and harass them.

In 2001, a Chinese fighter plane struck the US plane almost flipping it over and sending it into a steep dive with only one working engine. The pilot managed to recover and sent out distress signals. The only runway near enough to use was on a Chinese military base. The Chinese let the plane land, locked up the US crew, and began interrogating them.

US foreign-policy advisors told the president that the situation might be settled peacefully if the US waited and began behind-the-scenes negotiations. The negotiations, which took 10 days, resulted in the US releasing an ambiguously worded letter describing the incident. The Chinese were satisfied and released the crew, but not the plane's black box ( which would have shown that the Chinese version of the story (The US aircraft went out of its way to hit the Chinese aircraft)) Most people looked at the resolution as a success.

So, what would Trump have done?

ETA
Hainan Island Incident.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

The same thing, except that he would have done a side deal to build a casino on Hainan Island.

 

[slyjoe]

How is that different from what I said? Fine, if you want to call it "blow them out of the water" I'm ok with that. Although, technically, you'd need an underwater mine to blow a boat out of the water, and even then it's not so easy. They tried that on Mythbusters and got only partial success.

Here is the quote:

“And by the way, with Iran, when they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people and that they shouldn’t be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water,” Trump added, prompting “U.S.A.” chants from his audience.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...ry-clinton-shooting-iran-227987#ixzz4JretFEKO

See the part about gestures? You said "if they got too close". No, Donald is worried about them making gestures.

 

[sunmaster14]

Here is the quote:

“And by the way, with Iran, when they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little boats and they make gestures at our people and that they shouldn’t be allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water,” Trump added, prompting “U.S.A.” chants from his audience.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...ry-clinton-shooting-iran-227987#ixzz4JretFEKO

See the part about gestures? You said "if they got too close". No, Donald is worried about them making gestures.

Do you seriously think Trump was referring to them flipping our sailors the bird? I assume "gestures" refers to threatening actions, like getting too close, training guns on our ships or whatnot. Trump is not exactly the clearest speaker in the world, so I think it's not a stretch to say that he didn't mean what you apparently think he meant.

 

[Ladewig]

The same thing, except that he would have done a side deal to build a casino on Hainan Island.

Why, is it his plan to bankrupt casinos on every inhabitable continent?

Really? The guy who sees a dispute about an airport stairway as an insult that cannot be ignored would not have viewed the detention of American service men as an insult which cannot be ignored?

No one has ever accused Trump of being a patient man. He has already stated that he knows more than the generals and that he will not listen to foreign policy advisors. That guy is going to wait ten days before releasing a letter saying that the US is very sorry that the Chines pilot died?

 

[slyjoe]

Do you seriously think Trump was referring to them flipping our sailors the bird? I assume "gestures" refers to threatening actions, like getting too close, training guns on our ships or whatnot. Trump is not exactly the clearest speaker in the world, so I think it's not a stretch to say that he didn't mean what you apparently think he meant.

Yes I do. Why do you assume gestures means something else? I would agree if it was a sane person; you could allow him nuance. But he said getting too close and gestures, so I take him at his word. I wouldn't assume anything other than what he says. Many people (like his surrogates at one point) assumed the wall was metaphorical. It is not.

 

[Ladewig]

Do you seriously think Trump was referring to them flipping our sailors the bird? I assume "gestures" refers to threatening actions, like getting too close, training guns on our ships or whatnot. Trump is not exactly the clearest speaker in the world, so I think it's not a stretch to say that he didn't mean what you apparently think he meant.

I can go with your interpretation. However, Isn't clarity of speech a necessary requirement for the leader of a superpower that is going to earn respect by excercising its might?

 

[sunmaster14]

Why, is it his plan to bankrupt casinos on every inhabitable continent?

Really? The guy who sees a dispute about an airport stairway as an insult that cannot be ignored would not have viewed the detention of American service men as an insult which cannot be ignored?

No one has ever accused Trump of being a patient man. He has already stated that he knows more than the generals and that he will not listen to foreign policy advisors. That guy is going to wait ten days before releasing a letter saying that the US is very sorry that the Chines pilot died?

I think you're making the mistake of conflating verbal incontinence with impatience. Actually, Trump doesn't strike me as terribly impatient or impetuous. He is loose with his language certainly and lacks eloquence and polish (to say the least), but I don't think that's remotely the same thing as being impatient when it comes to action.

As somebody who has been involved in civil litigation before, I can tell you that litigation would try the patience of Job. And Trump has had more experience with litigation than virtually anybody. He must understand by now the importance of playing the long game.

 

[sunmaster14]

Yes I do. Why do you assume gestures means something else? I would agree if it was a sane person; you could allow him nuance. But he said getting too close and gestures, so I take him at his word. I wouldn't assume anything other than what he says. Many people (like his surrogates at one point) assumed the wall was metaphorical. It is not.

The wall is metaphorical in the sense that it won't end up being a 30 foot high concrete and steel wall for the entire border. There will be fencing in some areas and only electronic monitoring in other areas where there are already natural barriers. But, yes, the idea of the wall is not metaphorical. He really does plan to spend billions of dollars building up an artificial barrier along the Southern border, and I am all for it.

 

[acbytesla]

Everyone knows Democrats vote twice ... at least

If we can.

 

[sunmaster14]

I can go with your interpretation. However, Isn't clarity of speech a necessary requirement for the leader of a superpower that is going to earn respect by excercising its might?

Sometimes clarity is important. Sometimes it is more useful to be ambiguous. In this particular case, it doesn't really matter.

That reminds me of my favorite quote about the art of diplomacy:

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.

 

[jhunter1163]

What would Trump do if, as has happened, a Russian jet overflew a US destroyer and locked weapons? What would his orders be to the destroyer's skipper? "If it happens again..." ... do what? Fire? General quarters? Stand down?

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Do you seriously think Trump was referring to them flipping our sailors the bird? I assume "gestures" refers to threatening actions, like getting too close, training guns on our ships or whatnot.

Hard to say, but I took "gesture" to mean a threatening gesture, not flipping the bird, let's say.

But not being prepared to fire has its own possible downside:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing