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Trump runs for POTUS / Trumped Up! Part V

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I don't recommend pointing things out again and again in debate. It comes across as carping, especially, sad to say, from a woman.

I think asking him to re-phrase some rambling non-answer he's already forgotten is likely to throw him a bit. The beauty of his rambles is that you can get pretty much what you want out of them (look at the sterling work done by Trump's spin-doctors), so given two you can play one off against the other.

I don't suppose the format really suits that kind of ploy. Fine for the pub, though, when you've a clear route to the door, or in a meeting with the pointy-haired boss.


Good line.
I agree to disagree. You have Trump who has a certain segment of the population snookered. You have the press that points out Trump lie after lie, corruption after corruption, hypocrisy that knows no bounds, and yet Trump still won the primary and people come away from the CiC forum, some thinking Trump actually had a good schtick.

So, you can keep trying to address all that stuff even though it did no good, or you can try something else. Fast forward to Clinton's approach today. She pointed out he's a reality TV character. That includes pointing to the tap dance around the questions.

People can sometimes see something that was previously invisible if it is articulated/verbalized. What is invisible here to some people, is Trump's tap dance. It sounds like he answered the question.

You seem to think there is only one way to point out the tap dance. That's why you have this gender painted idea I meant simply saying over and over some whiney thing like, "There you go again." No, there are other ways to highlight your opponents tap dancing without doing it the way you picture.

For example you rebut Trump with, "I'm sorry, was there an answer to the question in there?" You put your hands up all puzzled and shake your head.

Next time you use a different method, "It sounds like you said, X, was the answer to the question. Here's why that won't work."

Trump never did answer the question so how can he say, that's not what he said without failing again to answer. He'll get riled.

And so on.
 
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There's no actual reason to lie about this, is there?

Either the Trumpets have lied instinctively - not to be discounted - or their operation is a freakin' dog's breakfast. I tend towards the latter.

Either excuse is terrible. He either purposely went on the Kremlin run "news network" (he did spout the Putin line that the DNC hacked themselves and it wasn't Russia and Larry King is a long time friend) or he and he staff are so incompetent that he accidentally went on the Kremlin run "news network."
 
Is that supposed to be a negative?

When I was a kid we would often do seeming stupid things to show that we supported a cause or a virtue. We put out a US flag on designated flag days. we put a yellow ribbon around our tree when hostages were held overseas. We decorated our home for holidays and events. We were a part of a community and our front yard was an indicator of our participation in that community. Was that all bad? Should I feel ashamed for having signaled my virtues or values?
Times change.

If you want to be one of the cool kids in sunmaster14's ideological neighborhood, you signal your contempt for virtue. You fly a Confederate flag, and roll coal, and mock the disabled. You express admiration for dictators and enthusiasm for torture and other war crimes. You criticize a navy pilot for being shot down and tortured. You blame the victims of rape, while saying it's important to have a "young and beautiful piece of ass". You say reliable sources have shown your political opponents are associates of Lee Harvey Oswald or are themselves non-citizens, and you say global warming is a hoax because it's cold this morning.
 
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The label "virtue signalling" as used by the anti-PC brigade is nothing but an attempt to shut down any criticism on ethical grounds. I've seen it used all over, hurled at anyone who dares to object to racism, misogyny or even political violence.

The term implies a conscious agenda to win social approval, rather than an ethical objection. For the sake of argument, it doesn't even matter if such an objection reflects the person's values. It stands or falls on its own ethical merits.

As it is usually used by those crusading against political correctness, it also hints at a persecution complex - oh no, people are objecting to my bigotry! Quelle horreur! Hidden agenda! If only people were to approve of tirades of hate; now they're just going around praising each other for their tolerance and equality!

I certainly agree that assigning bias can be biased. Even weaponized.
 
Nieman Lab has an interesting interview with David Fahrenthold on his tracking of Donald's nonexistent charitable donations.

Washington Post politics reporter David Fahrenthold is trying to find evidence of Donald Trump’s charitable donations, but he’s running out of paper.

Since early May, Fahrenthold has painstakingly chased Trump’s claims of giving millions of dollars of his own money to charities. So far, the investigation hasn’t turned up much evidence of that. Fahrenthold has contacted over 350 charities over the past few months, a process that he’s methodically tracked on 12 sheets of legal paper using three different colors of pen. He’s periodically posted the list to Twitter in an effort to both crowdsource suggestions on where to search next and to add a layer of transparency to his entire reporting process.

“Trump lives in Twitter, the media world lives on Twitter,” said Fahrenthold, explaining his approach. “If I’m going to search for this money, doing it on Twitter makes a lot of sense because it will attract Trump’s attention and everyone else’s attention as well.”
 
Expecially when the Republican Party opposes anything he proposes as a political tactic.

That's a myth propagated by Democrats. The Republicans opposed Obama when he advocated policies they didn't agree with. They supported him on policies they did agree with. The record is very clear actually.

That is not a fact, despite what you've heard. It as opinion most likely formed by way of motivated reasoning. Certainly not formed in good faith. And equally certainly leading on to the necessity of tax cuts for the rich and an end to the Death Tax.

Ha. How the hell would you know? I challenge you or anybody here to find anywhere that I've contradicted the worldview I espouse. I have over 7,500 posts here, and I guarantee it can't be done. That's because I always post my beliefs in good faith.

And there it is. All very plausible sounding and utterly spurious.

The overcapacity in 2008 was in the financial sector. That, of course, was a direct result of removing the Glass-Steagal restrictions and the subsequent reckless marketing of debt. Just as people like me predicted.

What you have typed is mostly nonsense. Overcapacity in the financial sector? What does that even mean except that there were too many people working there? Which is true, I suppose, but maybe 150,000 jobs were eliminated after 2008, and that's a drop in the bucket compared to the economy as a whole. Also, Glass-Steagall was bad policy, and its repeal had nothing to do with the housing bubble. If anything, the fact that there were independent investment banks made the crash worse. Of the five largest investment banks, all are either bankrupt (Lehman), acquired by a commercial bank (Merrill and Bear), or have turned into commercial banks (Goldman and Morgan Stanley) on their own.

As for the bubble itself, well, bubbles do happen from time to time. They are as much a part of the human condition as war. Of course, there was massive fraud happening at the level of mortgage origination. The financial machinery to turn loans into AAA-rated bonds of course gave the big banks incentive to ignore the fraud (if not indulge in it themselves), but ultimately there was a failure of policing on the part of the credit rating agencies and, ultimately, the investors in such crap.

Once the crash came the financial sector had marketed unsustainable debt to large parts of the population which it had never reached before, backed by the pension funds of millions of people who saw them evaporate.

What pension funds evaporated? For the most part retail people weren't exposed to the toxic mortgage debt. More likely they were the ones that benefited from taking out a big mortgage and then defaulting on it (while getting to live in their home for 7 or 8 years).

There is no similar case to measure the 2008 Crash with, and thus no similar recovery. There has been a recovery, which was not a given back then.

Of course it was a given. See Mosler's Law: "no financial crisis [is] so deep that a sufficiently large fiscal adjustment cannot deal with it."

It would have been nice if this fiscal adjustment had been made by cutting the wage tax to zero, but eventually the automatic stabilizers in the economy created sufficiently large deficits to build up private sector savings again.

(This kind of relaxation of credit wasn't confined to the US, of course, but it was particularly marked there and in the UK. The obvious run-up to the next crash is particularly marked in the US as well, but then sod-all's been done to prevent it.)

One success of Obama, and indeed of Bush before him (to the extent which anything can be creditied to Bush), was not to follow the Republican policy of reproducing the 1930's. The "austerity" which has kept recovery just as slow, if not slower, in Europe, and which cannot be blamed on Obama.

I agree with that. Austerity is idiotic. Fortunately, neither Democrats nor Republicans have the will to impose austerity in the US. For the record, though, austerity was not a Republican policy in the 1930s. You might not know this, but FDR attacked Hoover ferociously in 1932 for having too large a budget deficit.

And while we're on Republican policy, it's hard to see shutting down the government as a sensible one. And yet it happened.

Shutting down the government in the US means that some national parks close. 90% of the government is on autopilot. It was a non-event. Also, it was just as much Obama's and Harry Reid's fault. The Republican House passed a budget bill, and Harry Reid, at Obama's direction, refused to allow the Senate to vote on it.

Eight years on is a bit soon to start rewriting History: this is still current events. There was no such expectation. What happened is that Bush was desperate to get a leave-date agreed before he left office in a pathetic attempt to rescue some small shard of his reputation. It failed.

Utterly false. I'll have to dig up some of my references, but Bush, as was his nature, wanted to give his successor some breathing room while still not locking him into any one policy on Iraq. The agreement was for three years specifically to give Obama a say in any new SOFA, without forcing him to make a high pressure decision early in his term.

As has been pointed out, the US population wanted the troops out, and the Iraqis wanted the troops out. ISIS hit the scene six years later, when Iraq was supposed to have its own army in place, and by all rights should have done. US troops weren't going to be kept there in anticipation all that time. The idea is nonsensical.

Some of the US population wanted the troops out, but that's meaningless. We have a representative democracy. We don't hold referenda on military strategies. The President should do what's best for the country, not what's best for his short-term approval rating. The Iraqi government actually did not want US troops out, and the Sunnis certainly didn't. The man on the street mouthed platitudes about getting rid of the US troops, but that's sort of par for the course in the Arab world. Say one thing, and mean another.

What is an abvious fact is the Bush regime's reckless invasion of Iraq and abject handling of the aftermath removed the option of US troops being put on the ground for a generation, even where it would actually make sense. That's an option removed by the Bush administration. Just as the budget surplus it inherited was an option not bequeathed to its successor.

Actually, what I would say instead is that the Democrats' cynical exploitation of a difficult occupation for political purposes quashed any chance of using US troops on the ground for another Presidential cycle. It truly is odd how Iraq has been cemented in the public consciousness as some sort of disaster. The alternative scenario (leaving Saddam in place and allowing the sanctions to erode) could have been pretty nightmarish. It was probably also inevitable that Iraq would go the way of Syria if Saddam stayed in charge, although by the time the civil war began, he might already have had weapons of mass destruction.
 
Man, I like posters that know history. I especially appreciate the "Jeep Rubicon".:thumbsup:

But I'll remind you that there was more than 2 dozen assassination attempts on Hitler so there may be a better chance that Petreus would be more Von Stauffenberg than a Brutus.

But Petreus looks nothing like Tom Cruise....:D
 
You seem to think there is only one way to point out the tap dance.
Not at all : I recommend throwing combinations. I'm simply suggesting one technique to have in your arsenal, and one which has served me well in the right circumstances. You lead someone into a contradiction and mess them up as they try to wriggle out of it. It works against imprecision and sloganeers.

For example you rebut Trump with, "I'm sorry, was there an answer to the question in there?"
Which is where I ask someone to re-phrase - I sincerely want to understand, after all, and the fault is surely with me. Someone can have an MBA and not be the fatuous nitwit we all know they are. It has to appear that the awful truth gradually dawns.
 
The label "virtue signalling" as used by the anti-PC brigade is nothing but an attempt to shut down any criticism on ethical grounds. I've seen it used all over, hurled at anyone who dares to object to racism, misogyny or even political violence.

The term implies a conscious agenda to win social approval, rather than an ethical objection. For the sake of argument, it doesn't even matter if such an objection reflects the person's values. It stands or falls on its own ethical merits.

As it is usually used by those crusading against political correctness, it also hints at a persecution complex - oh no, people are objecting to my bigotry! Quelle horreur! Hidden agenda! If only people were to approve of tirades of hate; now they're just going around praising each other for their tolerance and equality!

Wow do you have a bee in your bonnet. Anyhoo, what the hell does any of that have to do with placing a "Hillary 2016" yard sign on your lawn? My point was that the "virtue signaling" motivation almost surely swamps any desire to increase Hillary's chances of winning. The reason is that the latter effect is nil.
 
Actually, what I would say instead is that the Democrats' cynical exploitation of a difficult occupation for political purposes quashed any chance of using US troops on the ground for another Presidential cycle.
This is getting to the furthest reaches of derangement. Now they're meant to be responsible for:

The dismissal of the Iraqi army overnight.
The dismissal of the Iraqi police overnight.
The dismissal of the civil administration overnight.
The failure to secure Saddam's arsenals.
The credibility they gave to political chancers and con-men, while shipping in billions of dollars in fiat-cash with no oversight.
The employment of Haliburton contractors at extortionate rates while perfectly qualified Iraqis looked on and fumed.

Which is just the tip of it.

And yet for you it has to absolutely be the Democrats who caused that. Deranged is the only word, frankly.

It isn't as if this is old history. Most of were there and watching it in jaw-dropped horror.
 
Ha. How the hell would you know? I challenge you or anybody here to find anywhere that I've contradicted the worldview I espouse. I have over 7,500 posts here, and I guarantee it can't be done. That's because I always post my beliefs in good faith.
I'm not suggesting it's your motivated thinking or bad faith. What you do is motivated listening.
 
He's been asked about it at least three times in the last week. He still says he doesn't talk about it. He still holds the racist belief and his surrogates know it's damaging so they're lying about him changing his stance on it.

I think you are giving him too much credit. He refuses to acknowledge the error not because he fears a shift in support, but rather because he has a morbid aversion to ever publicly admitting he was wrong.
 
Yeah, and the Republic still won't fall because of it.


Trump could potentially be to the U.S. as the impact of commercial airliners was to the Twin Towers: not a direct and immediate cause of their collapse, but an obvious and significant contributing factor.
 
Just saw a discussion on CNN about Trump's bromance with Putin.

Some guy whose name I didn't catch: "Trump is a classic authoritarian. That's what Trump wants to be."
Jeff Lord: "Obama! Obama! OBAMA! OBAMA'S A FASCIST!"
Guy: "But what about Trump?"
Lord: "(repeat of above)

Even Katrina Pierson is smarter than Jeff.
 
Lawrence O'Donnell has just called Trump "an unhinged lunatic" for saying tonight in a speech that he'd shoot those Iranian boats buzzing our boats in the Gulf out of the water.

NPR Trump: Iranian boats that make improper ‘gestures’ will be ‘shot out of the water’

From this article: WA Po: Trump: Iranian boats that make improper ‘gestures’ will be ‘shot out of the water’
Ever since he installed new campaign leadership about three weeks ago, Trump has softened his tone on the campaign trail and mostly stuck to prepared rally speeches loaded onto teleprompters. That level of discipline seemed to fade during a rally in a packed arena in the Florida panhandle on Friday night.
 
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