Proof of Immortality III

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This is a very curvy road we're traveling. My claim is that you are missing some of the turns...

That claim is wrong. Do not mask your own inadequacy and unwillingness to address the point by insinuating your critics are somehow unenlightened.

In the following, wherever the word "some" occurs allows for mortality....

No. Your critics -- specifically jt512 and caveman -- explained to you how and why this partitioning would not work. They opined that you just came up with it as a knee-jerk reaction to being told ~H must be partitioned in order to be discretely computable.

You sidestepped their presentation with the protest that you didn't understand it. That doesn't leave you in a tenable position. Either you understand how your argument is wrong or you don't, and if you don't then you can't tell people this debate is a "stalemate." That's not a judgment that can be defensibly made in the ignorance you confess.

1.1.1.9. Some other explanation.

The fact that you have to include this term means you have not yet escape the false dilemma. Cherry picking a few random propositions does not satisfy your need to properly partition ~H. You have been told this several times, and you have done nothing to correct it.

You're also equivocating "some."

Simply repeating your claims over and over again does not establish them. Please endeavor to learn what it means to prove something.
 
Mojo,
- This is a very curvy road we're traveling. My claim is that you are missing some of the turns...

Oh yeah?

You also claimed you could prove immortality mathematically, and 4 years on you haven't even come close.

Guess how much weight your claims carry.
 
This is a very curvy road we're traveling. My claim is that you are missing some of the turns.

Stop talking in metaphors.

In this case, I'd say that you made a turn you shouldn't have. Many of us could be quite mortal. In the following, wherever the word "some" occurs allows for mortality -- it's just that, in my opinion, the prior probabilities of those particular versions of ~H are very small.

And let me guess Jabba you're one of the special immortal ones?
 
Jabba, you are trying to prove immortality (and specifically your own immortality) by disproving H, whatever that might currently be. For you to do this, it is necessary for ~H to only include hypotheses under which you are immortal. You need to frame H accordingly, and then find some way of disproving that specific H.

The wrong turn I took was not realising how badly your argument is messed up, but don't worry: jsfisher has put me back on the right track.
Mojo,

- First, my argument applies to you and everyone else on this forum that isn't an android...

- And then, please forget about the immortality part. That's how I started -- but, I changed my horse to a stronger steed. I still think that my first steed will make it across the river, but my current steed is stronger.
- Maybe a better analogy is that I haven't changed horses at all, I've just moved my crossing back up the river to where the water has risen only to my horses knees, and the crossing is easier. Once I'm to the other side, I just have a few bushes to avoid on my way downstream to my first destination.
- IOW, I'm claiming that my argument so far applies to both immortality and ~OOFLam; ~OOFLam doesn't require quite as much argument as does immortality; at this point, I've basically covered the argument for ~OOFLam; and, if I can establish that beachhead first, getting the rest of the way should be relatively easy.
 
Mojo,

- First, my argument applies to you and everyone else on this forum that isn't an android...

- And then, please forget about the immortality part. That's how I started -- but, I changed my horse to a stronger steed. I still think that my first steed will make it across the river, but my current steed is stronger.
- Maybe a better analogy is that I haven't changed horses at all, I've just moved my crossing back up the river to where the water has risen only to my horses knees, and the crossing is easier. Once I'm to the other side, I just have a few bushes to avoid on my way downstream to my first destination.
- IOW, I'm claiming that my argument so far applies to both immortality and ~OOFLam; ~OOFLam doesn't require quite as much argument as does immortality; at this point, I've basically covered the argument for ~OOFLam; and, if I can establish that beachhead first, getting the rest of the way should be relatively easy.

Does the self exist separately from the body in OOFLam?
 
Mojo,

- First, my argument applies to you and everyone else on this forum that isn't an android...


No, it is specifically your own current existence and your own immortality that your argument addresses.

- And then, please forget about the immortality part. That's how I started -- but, I changed my horse to a stronger steed. I still think that my first steed will make it across the river, but my current steed is stronger.
- Maybe a better analogy is that I haven't changed horses at all, I've just moved my crossing back up the river to where the water has risen only to my horses knees, and the crossing is easier. Once I'm to the other side, I just have a few bushes to avoid on my way downstream to my first destination.
- IOW, I'm claiming that my argument so far applies to both immortality and ~OOFLam; ~OOFLam doesn't require quite as much argument as does immortality; at this point, I've basically covered the argument for ~OOFLam; and, if I can establish that beachhead [I][I][I][I][I][I][I][I]first[/I][/I][/I][/I][/I][/I][/I][/I], getting the rest of the way should be relatively easy.


IOW you are trying to equivocate between "~OOFLam" and immortality. What makes you think that you will get away with it, when you have been called out on all your previous attempts at equivocation?

And you only need one set of italics tags. Nesting them doesn't make their contents any more italic.
 
First, my argument applies to you and everyone else on this forum that isn't an android...

Asked and answered. You equivocate your wording of the sample space between -- as in this case -- a universal proposition, and then elsewhere some preselected individual when you need to cobble up a rationale for the supposed improbability of yours (or anyone else's) existence.

Since you've already faced up to the analogy that demonstrates this error, it would be less rude to your critics if you kindly quit making it repeatedly.

And then, please forget about the immortality part.

Asked and answered. You told us you thought you could prove immortality mathematically. When you figured out you couldn't, in order to save face you tried to move the goalposts as you often do to soften what you think you need to prove. You even tipped your hand that once you had done that, you'd snap it back to full strength as you typically do in order to curry false agreement, and you're doing so again vigorously in this post.

No, your critics are under no obligation to let you try to prove a lesser claim, especially when you haven't revised your argument in critical places to account for that lesser claim. If you want to prove something other than immortality, admit here that you can't and start a new thread with a new rationale and a new goal. Because otherwise you're very blatantly changing horses.

Maybe a better analogy is that I haven't changed horses at all, I've just moved my crossing back up the river...

Pure, deceptive equivocation. In the parlance of debate, "Changing horses" means changing what you're going to prove, while in the middle of the argument to prove it. That's exactly what you're trying to do. And now you're just pleading to redefine the idiom to disguise the attempt.

How dishonest, Jabba. After four years do you really think your critics aren't wise to this perfidy?

IOW, I'm claiming that my argument so far applies to both immortality and ~OOFLam;

But it doesn't because you don't know how to properly partition the hypothesis set. Specifically you don't know how to keep the need for a soul on one side and the brain-only proposition on the other. This leads you to inadvertently require a soul for the one-finite-life case computation, which is not something your opponents accept as a proper characterization of their position.

And of course we've been over and over and over this. Many times. As I've asked you many times before, if your plan is simply to repeat your claims over and over again with few if any changes and ignore what nearly everyone else says to you, why would you think a rational person would engage you? Why wouldn't a rational person instead conclude that this "debate" isn't just a self-gratifying attempt to post-justify a belief you've already admitted cannot be shaken and would be emotionally devastating to you if you didn't believe it had objective strength?

Answer, please.
 
IOW you are trying to equivocate between "~OOFLam" and immortality. What makes you think that you will get away with it, when you have been called out on all your previous attempts at equivocation?

Exactly -- just as he tried to equivocate between "authentic" and "not forged" in the Shroud debate, and between CAT and ~DOG in the circumstantial evidence thread.

All the threads he starts to try to objectively prove his cherished beliefs end up boiling down to the same sort of false dilemma, and the same attempt to disguise that false dilemma with statistical notation.
 
Jabba -

Included in the idea that we have only a single life is at least two different models: a) the scientific model of the universe; and b) the clockwork universe. There is no way to disprove a clockwork universe.

In the scientific model let's agree that you had a very small chance of existing. But in the clockwork model, your chance of existing was always 1. Your existence is a necessary consequence of the starting conditions of the universe.

How do you calculate the overall probability that you would come to exist when two theories, both contained in the OOFLAM set, have such different probabilities attached to them?
 
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Yep. It's "The absence of X proves Y, so Z is true" without bothering to provide evidence that the absence of X actually proves Y, the actual absence of X, or how it relates to Z.

So since the fact Tupperware doesn't exist proves that elves do, all bishops are mailboxes.

Except Tupperware does exist, elves don't and neither of those points have to do with bishops being mailboxes.
 
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Jabba -

Included in the idea that we have only a single life is at least two different models: a) the scientific model of the universe; and b) the clockwork universe. There is no way to disprove a clockwork universe.

In the scientific model let's agree that you had a very small chance of existing. But in the clockwork model, your chance of existing was always 1. Your existence is a necessary consequence of the starting conditions of the universe.

How do you calculate the overall probability that you would come to exist when two theories, both contained in the OOFLAM set, have such different probabilities attached to them?
LL,
- Just to make sure -- by a clockwork universe you mean a deterministic universe?
 
Does the self exist separately from the body in OOFLam?

Well, it can. That was one of the unintended consequences of abandoning the so-called scientific model...but does Jabba understand that?
 
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Well, it can. That was one of the unintended consequences of abandoning the so-called scientific model...but does Jabba understand that?

Yes, but it's an important point that he needs to clarify.
 
LL,
- Just to make sure -- by a clockwork universe you mean a deterministic universe?
Yes. Clearly.

Can you rule out that we are in a deterministic universe? If not, how does this change your odds?
 
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Well, it can. That was one of the unintended consequences of abandoning the so-called scientific model...but does Jabba understand that?

That's the sixty-four dollar question, and it probably bumps up against MA propriety to consider it. He has exhibited the propensity toward incorrect categorical thought in all his threads. To determine whether he just doesn't understand, or whether he feigns incomprehension in order to sidestep rebuttals he can't address, we need information we just don't have and can't get. It would be nice if we, Jabba's critics, were able to agree he's arguing in good faith. But his latest confessional leaves that too far in doubt. Sadly, within the ground rules here, we seem to have little recourse but to assume he doesn't understand and explain it to him umpteen times, thus spinning the hamster wheel and prolonging the moment when Jabba has to admit to himself his beliefs have no objective rationale.
 
Yes. Clearly.

Can you rule out that we are in a deterministic universe? If not, how does this change your odds?
LL,

- No. I can't rule it out.
- Unfortunately, this is another mind, and communication, boggling sub-issue.

- First, even if we should accept that such would change my likelihood to 1.00, it wouldn't change the odds that now would be somewhere between 1942 and, say, 2042 on the Gregorian calendar.
- Next, once we had the big bang and a deterministic universe, my odds of ever existing would be 1.00 -- but, if we go back to the apparent singularity, the odds of me ever existing would still be virtually zero.
 
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Oh, and the way you're framing it now, that "some other explanation" includes everyone having a finite number of finite lives, so you haven't even escaped the false dilemma.
Mojo,
- If I understand what you're saying, I think you're wrong -- it's still an issue of OOFLam vs ~OOFLam.
 
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