Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It is decided at preliminary hearings:

a) what the issues are

b) who the appearing witnesses will be

c) each side will be instructed to provide the evidence/witness statements to the other side.


Clear now?


I know very well what happens in preliminary hearings. And I also know very well that judges in the trial proper do not go back through things that were discussed and dismissed in preliminary hearings by totally different judges.

Clear now?
 
It is decided at preliminary hearings:

a) what the issues are

b) who the appearing witnesses will be

c) each side will be instructed to provide the evidence/witness statements to the other side.


Clear now?

LOL!

What is clear is that Stefanoni should have as a matter of proper procedure handed over the EDFs at the preliminary stage.

Even by the Nencini trial, they were calling for them, and even Nencini deviated from proper practice by saying, no - you have to ask, and ask nicely. Nencini did not think it was either automatic or a right.

Why do you?
 
LOL!

What is clear is that Stefanoni should have as a matter of proper procedure handed over the EDFs at the preliminary stage.

Even by the Nencini trial, they were calling for them, and even Nencini deviated from proper practice by saying, no - you have to ask, and ask nicely. Nencini did not think it was either automatic or a right.

Why do you?

AFAIAA Stefanoni did provide them. What you have to also understand is that either side can object to a piece of evidence or testimony.

In the case of Taramontano, or even Stefanoni, such an argument will likely have been heard in camera and either accepted or dismissed. The salient point is, there will not be a public record of the minutes or transcript of such a hearing.

So all that leaves you with, Bill, is conjecture and Conspiracy Theory.
 
It is apparently a fact that Knox hit the side of her head with her hand after she had (to use the charming word employed by the Perugia Chief of Police) "buckled" under unlawfully coercive and bullying questioning with a little physical violence thrown in for good measure. That could reasonably be interpreted as a symptom of someone under enormous psychological pressure.

And please provide evidence to support your claim that it's "a fact" that Knox "punched a wall, leaving her fists bloody". Or, y'know, withdraw the claim as false and unsupported. Thanks in advance!

Here we go. Amanda was heard making loud animal noises in her hotel room, and she explains it thus:

Admittedly nervous during the interview, she describes one such episode from the past weekend: "I sit in my hotel room and cry so loud until the security calls the room, because the person next door has heard me crying," Knox says, her voice cracking.

Some pics of Amanda's self harming. Source: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...false_claims_in_accounts_of_your_visi/#c16618

It is simply not psychologically healthy to live a lie. Far from doing Amanda a favour the FOA are simply adding to unbearable pressure on her to feign innocence. She wanted to confess but misguided persons prevented her (Mom, lawyers, FOA, courts, press, family).

ETA In that interview, she accidentally confessed to being at the murder when it happened: "There's no use for me writing this if I wasn't completely honest and completely there." And that is why she went nuts and punched a wall. She says the above at 0:35 in the video here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Her-tearful-plea-family-Meredith-Kercher.html

In the CNN article re Chris Cuomo, she claims the knuckle injuries came from 'self defence' lessons.

In that interview, she also slips and blurts out, 'If Rudy did it...' http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/07/justice/amanda-knox-interview/
 

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AFAIAA Stefanoni did provide them. What you have to also understand is that either side can object to a piece of evidence or testimony.

In the case of Taramontano, or even Stefanoni, such an argument will likely have been heard in camera and either accepted or dismissed. The salient point is, there will not be a public record of the minutes or transcript of such a hearing.

So all that leaves you with, Bill, is conjecture and Conspiracy Theory.

Nice try.

Why would DNA evidence be heard "in camera" if the DNA was subsequently deemed relevant to the case? Does "in camera" mean that the defence had no access to it? The judge ruling it inadmissible also doesn't effect the defence automatically having access to it, based on discovery rules. Or was Comodi right is saying, "We will decide what the defence sees."?

Your excuse for the non-disclosure - aside from tacitly admitting it was non-disclosed - is stupid. There is no conjecture - if there were you'd be able to provide a link to the fact that the defence had access to the EDFs.

What there was in the Nencini trial was Nencini (in his motivations report) citing that Novelli had access to them. Nencini said that the reason Novelli had access to them was because he had asked, and that Conti-Vecchiotti had not; which was the reason they had not seen them. Nencini implied it was C-V's own fault!!!!!

Their own fault, for something that should have been seen well, well before even the Massei trial in 2009! That Nencini tacitly admits that C-V had not seem them by 2013 makes confetti out of your rather stupid excuse for them.
 
Here we go. Amanda was heard making loud animal noises in her hotel room, and she explains it thus:



Some pics of Amanda's self harming. Source: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...false_claims_in_accounts_of_your_visi/#c16618

It is simply not psychologically healthy to live a lie. Far from doing Amanda a favour the FOA are simply adding to unbearable pressure on her to feign innocence. She wanted to confess but misguided persons prevented her (Mom, lawyers, FOA, courts, press, family).

ETA In that interview, she accidentally confessed to being at the murder when it happened: "There's no use for me writing this if I wasn't completely honest and completely there." And that is why she went nuts and punched a wall. She says the above at 0:35 in the video here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Her-tearful-plea-family-Meredith-Kercher.html

In the CNN article re Chris Cuomo, she claims the knuckle injuries came from 'self defence' lessons.

In that interview, she also slips and blurts out, 'If Rudy did it...' http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/07/justice/amanda-knox-interview/


I'll repeat: please supply evidence that it's a "fact" that Knox "punched a wall, leaving her fists bloody".

Is there a part of my request that you're having trouble understanding? If so, I'm truly not sure I can make it much clearer, I'm afraid.
 
By the way, Knox's factual knowledge (or otherwise) of Guede's involvement in the murder of Kercher is another version of the old "When did you stop beating your wife?" question.

If Knox says Guede killed Kercher, some (*ahem*) will say: AHAAA!! She could only know that Guede killed Kercher if she herself was there and - at the very least - witnessed it!!

If Knox says Guede might have killed Kercher, some (*ahem*) will say AHAAA!! She's letting slip that it was actually she who killed Kercher!!


Whereas, the true logical position is that if Knox had nothing to do with the murder (as is consistent with all the evidence and lack of evidence), she has precisely as much knowledge as anyone else in the entire world other than Guede (and Guede's accomplice(s), if any such existed) about the certainty or otherwise of Guede's involvement.

But it's nonetheless fascinating to observe the way that a logically-consistent comment such as that from Knox can be picked up and willfully misinterpreted by those with a predisposition to assign adverse inferences with zero foundation. In fact, I'd suggest that this is one of the predominant features of most pro-guilt "arguments". Really fascinating.
 
Nice try.

Why would DNA evidence be heard "in camera" if the DNA was subsequently deemed relevant to the case? Does "in camera" mean that the defence had no access to it? The judge ruling it inadmissible also doesn't effect the defence automatically having access to it, based on discovery rules. Or was Comodi right is saying, "We will decide what the defence sees."?

Your excuse for the non-disclosure - aside from tacitly admitting it was non-disclosed - is stupid. There is no conjecture - if there were you'd be able to provide a link to the fact that the defence had access to the EDFs.

What there was in the Nencini trial was Nencini (in his motivations report) citing that Novelli had access to them. Nencini said that the reason Novelli had access to them was because he had asked, and that Conti-Vecchiotti had not; which was the reason they had not seen them. Nencini implied it was C-V's own fault!!!!!

Their own fault, for something that should have been seen well, well before even the Massei trial in 2009! That Nencini tacitly admits that C-V had not seem them by 2013 makes confetti out of your rather stupid excuse for them.


Vixen demonstrates her ignorance once again. Matters are generally heard in camera in a normal criminal trial (i.e. where things like state secrets are not involved) when admissibility is being determined. For example, in the OJ Simpson murder trial, there was an in camera hearing about whether or not evidence of Detective Fuhrman using the "N" word could be admitted.

And as such, any in camera proceedings cannot, by definition, end up having an impact upon the trial without any public knowledge of them. If the in camera hearings result in the matter being deemed inadmissible, the public will never hear about it, but that will be moot because the matter will never be able to be used in the trial. On the other hand, if the in camera hearing results in the matter being admitted, it will then be heard in open court (meaning that the public will learn about it).

And the very notion that something like the issue of Stefanoni and the EDFs would be subject to an in camera ruling resulting in the EDFs being placed before the court, with the presence of those EDFs in the court record never even being revealed in open court, is preposterous and laughably ignorant.
 
Why the judges didn't believe Taramontano

Here's Micheli's reasoning for disregarding Taramontano's testimony:

[214] As well, the fact that CHRISTIAN TRAMONTANO had claimed to recognise in Mr GUEDE the young man of colour that he surprised on the occasion of the burglary in his house, is feeble, however not wanting to consider the circumstance – deduced by the defence, and which can be held to be admitted if not documented – that he had in his turn become a witness “mediated” by television: that recognition manifests in fact as being expressed in doubtful terms, with repeated “I think”s, actually mentioned already from the moment in which Mr TRAMONTANO had seen RUDY at the “Domus” on the evening after the burglary, and even less justifiable when he had had opportunity and means of seeing his photograph in all organs of the press and TV shows.

[215] That therefore Mr GUEDE would be adept with knives, seeing that according to Mr TRAMONTANO the unknown thief was brandishing one of them, cannot be admitted on the basis of that deposition, about whose content it is permissible to hypothesize an influence of suggestive reading of the journalistic chronicles: according to the one robbed, RUDY had taken up the knife after having menaced him with a chair (and it is not understandable why a man who knows has a knife in his pocket would have set himself about to pick up the seating, an implement of such weak intimidatory force and quite inconvenient to manage), but it would concern a conduct strangely superimposable on that – not yet offensive, but defensive – that the accused claims to have adopted in the face of the presumed murder of Ms KERCHER, and about which the press had given ample context.
 
Here's Micheli's reasoning for disregarding Taramontano's testimony:


Another piece of risibly poor judicial reasoning from Micheli there...

It's not at all unreasonable that an intruder with a knife in his pocket might first have picked up a chair as an intimidatory/defensive measure. If the knife were a concealed blade (and I recall that this was the type of knife Guede carried), and assuming it was in his pocket, it would have taken both time and the risk of having to look down (to retrieve the knife and to open the blade). Whereas picking up a chair next to him took no time at all and barely a glance at the chair. Micheli is horribly out with his reasoning on this element.

And on the first paragraph, in which he talks of Tramontano's memory being adversely influenced by seeing Guede's image in the media..... well, once one sets that against the stories of the likes of Quintavalle and Curatolo, it doesn't take a genius to see that if this was a significant reason to throw out Tramontano's story, it was sufficient in spades to throw out Quintavalle's and Curatolo's stories immediately.

Epic fail from Micheli.
 
Rudy confessed to using a chair to defend himself in one of his versions of his story about the murder. So CT could potentially be corroborating Rudy's MO. Unfortunately Rudy's letter detailing his chair use was released in an Italian paper before CT's statement to the police, so we can't know for sure if CT wasn't influenced by that. The Italians seem to release all evidence instantly as it becomes available, or at least they did in this case.
 
Rudy confessed to using a chair to defend himself in one of his versions of his story about the murder. So CT could potentially be corroborating Rudy's MO. Unfortunately Rudy's letter detailing his chair use was released in an Italian paper before CT's statement to the police, so we can't know for sure if CT wasn't influenced by that. The Italians seem to release all evidence instantly as it becomes available, or at least they did in this case.


I think that the credibility of Tramontano's story has to be judged primarily on other criteria - chiefly based around when and why he came forward with his story, and how generally reliable, truthful and certain he seems in his recollection.

And as I pointed out before, the jaw drops when one compares Tramontaro's story with those of people such as Curatolo and Quintavalle. In the latter case in particular, the Kercher case - and the photos/info of Knox and Sollecito - had been flooding the Italian national media (never mind just local media) for nigh-on a year when Quintavalle came forward with his miraculous "remembrance", down to the eye colour of the utterly unremarkable (at the time) woman he claims he remembers seeing in his store, the clothing she was wearing, and the direction in which she headed after leaving the store. And in addition, of course, Quintavalle had already been explicitly questioned by the police shortly after the murder, with no apparent recollection at that point. It's abundantly clear that Quintavalle's story must reasonably have been deemed utterly incredible and unreliable by any competent court - as the SC subsequently had to correct.

On the issue of the leaking of information, I would imagine that there's a long-standing series of commercial relationships between police and/or PMs and certain media outlets, in pretty much every single large town and city in Italy. The police/PM feed the chosen media outlets juicy details from high-profile current investigations, in return for cash in an envelope.

That's certainly what appears to have happened at an almost epidemic level in the Kercher case. A lesser version of it went on in the UK for years, notably between certain Met Police detectives and certain tabloid newspapers. And from what I know of Italy vs the UK, I find it almost impossible to believe that their levels of corruption in this area were anything other than a lot more widespread and entrenched.
 
On the issue of the leaking of information, I would imagine that there's a long-standing series of commercial relationships between police and/or PMs and certain media outlets, in pretty much every single large town and city in Italy. The police/PM feed the chosen media outlets juicy details from high-profile current investigations, in return for cash in an envelope.

Just saw a program on the JonBenét Ramsey case - where the Boulder CO police were heavily criticized for their leaking of info early on. Those leaks became the basis of "public truth" which resulted in then-unprecedented vilification of the parents.

As the 2 hour program unfolded, it trashed each of the leaks/factoids one by one. But the damage had been done - and the program followed what it called the group think/confirmation bias of the police which became the basis for the way they assessed evidence.

When the police were presented with incontrovertible evidence that expert forensic-DNA experts ALL said that the evidence in front of them suggested an intruder - where today's testing has narrowed it to an Hispanic male - the police stuck to the view that the DNA was suddenly irrelevant to the case.

There were a ton of parallels between Boulder and Perugia.
 
I think that the credibility of Tramontano's story has to be judged primarily on other criteria - chiefly based around when and why he came forward with his story, and how generally reliable, truthful and certain he seems in his recollection.

And as I pointed out before, the jaw drops when one compares Tramontaro's story with those of people such as Curatolo and Quintavalle. In the latter case in particular, the Kercher case - and the photos/info of Knox and Sollecito - had been flooding the Italian national media (never mind just local media) for nigh-on a year when Quintavalle came forward with his miraculous "remembrance", down to the eye colour of the utterly unremarkable (at the time) woman he claims he remembers seeing in his store, the clothing she was wearing, and the direction in which she headed after leaving the store. And in addition, of course, Quintavalle had already been explicitly questioned by the police shortly after the murder, with no apparent recollection at that point. It's abundantly clear that Quintavalle's story must reasonably have been deemed utterly incredible and unreliable by any competent court - as the SC subsequently had to correct.

On the issue of the leaking of information, I would imagine that there's a long-standing series of commercial relationships between police and/or PMs and certain media outlets, in pretty much every single large town and city in Italy. The police/PM feed the chosen media outlets juicy details from high-profile current investigations, in return for cash in an envelope.

That's certainly what appears to have happened at an almost epidemic level in the Kercher case. A lesser version of it went on in the UK for years, notably between certain Met Police detectives and certain tabloid newspapers. And from what I know of Italy vs the UK, I find it almost impossible to believe that their levels of corruption in this area were anything other than a lot more widespread and entrenched.

Over time, and partially because of this case (and others) I have become extremely skeptical of witness testimony. I used to have a naive view. Why would an independent person go into a courtroom, swear and oath, and lie through their teeth about something they didn't see for no reason? And yet that's exactly what Quintavalle did. Now we are very fortunate in that Quintavalle is so incredibly stupid that he forgot he had already been interviewed by the police shortly after the crime and stated he knew nothing and saw nothing, but if that interview never happened, we would essentially have an unimpeachable member of the public giving seemingly honest testimony about an event he recalls.

I basically only consider witness testimony in special circumstances now:

-If they're interviewed immediately after the crime, preferably onsite at or near the crime scene during the very first round of investigating.

OR

-Their testimony can be corroborated by a credible unreleased independent factor, whether it's forensic evidence, phone records, other unreleased details, a separate independent witness interviewed under different circumstances, etc etc...

Since CT didn't come forward until the case was an international sensation, and since the Italian police had leaked every bit of inside information about the case prior to CT coming forward, and since there was never an original police report filed, I find CT's testimony to be of little value.

I tend to believe CT because I already believe Rudy was an active burglar, but it's just supplementary details for me rather than corroboration.
 
In the Ramsey case, the police also quickly determined that neither John nor Patsy (parents) were acting normally. Police also quickly theorized that some of the circumstances of death had been staged by the parents to point away from them.

Also, on the advice of a friend, the parents had retained attorneys cementing for the police that they were guilty. Unknown to the Ramsays, this friend had been tipped off by an anonymous cop that the Ramsays were the only suspects.

The parallels continue.
 
In the Ramsey case, the police also quickly determined that neither John nor Patsy (parents) were acting normally. Police also quickly theorized that some of the circumstances of death had been staged by the parents to point away from them.

Also, on the advice of a friend, the parents had retained attorneys cementing for the police that they were guilty. Unknown to the Ramsays, this friend had been tipped off by an anonymous cop that the Ramsays were the only suspects.

The parallels continue.

One interesting aspect of that case I mentioned before is it's like a reverse Knox case. They have trace amounts of LCN DNA on the victim's body, so if you believe the parents are guilty you have to believe this DNA in the bloody underwear is the result of contamination, but if you're Knox PGP you have to believe LCN DNA contamination is nearly impossible. So nobody can be a Knox PGP and a Ramsey PGP at the same time.
 
Another piece of risibly poor judicial reasoning from Micheli there...

It's not at all unreasonable that an intruder with a knife in his pocket might first have picked up a chair as an intimidatory/defensive measure. If the knife were a concealed blade (and I recall that this was the type of knife Guede carried), and assuming it was in his pocket, it would have taken both time and the risk of having to look down (to retrieve the knife and to open the blade). Whereas picking up a chair next to him took no time at all and barely a glance at the chair. Micheli is horribly out with his reasoning on this element.

And on the first paragraph, in which he talks of Tramontano's memory being adversely influenced by seeing Guede's image in the media..... well, once one sets that against the stories of the likes of Quintavalle and Curatolo, it doesn't take a genius to see that if this was a significant reason to throw out Tramontano's story, it was sufficient in spades to throw out Quintavalle's and Curatolo's stories immediately.

Epic fail from Micheli.

Whether true or false, judges come across suspected fake testimony all the time and this is how Taramantano came across.

I've seen a fake witness being ordered by the judge to leave his court.
 
One interesting aspect of that case I mentioned before is it's like a reverse Knox case. They have trace amounts of LCN DNA on the victim's body, so if you believe the parents are guilty you have to believe this DNA in the bloody underwear is the result of contamination, but if you're Knox PGP you have to believe LCN DNA contamination is nearly impossible. So nobody can be a Knox PGP and a Ramsey PGP at the same time.

Detective Linda Arndt is the Napoleoni of the Ramsey case. Still thinking it had been a kidnapping, she was the one who sent John Ramsey to re-search the house. When he came up from the basement screaming with the lifeless body, Arndt was immediately out of her depth.

She admits to her "head exploding" and she made a mental note of how many rounds she had on her for her weapon (18). She thought that no one would get out of the house alive.

In the program she said that she immediately knew that the murderer was still in the house, heavily implying that it was John.

I wonder if Napoleoni herself was similarly emotionally compromised by it all, and myopicly latched on to Knox, because of what N. thought of as offensive behaviour?

Either way it shows how cops themselves can get traumatized by terrible and horrid events.

Also, the treatment of **independent** investigator Lou Smit shows how independent people can get vilified by insiders emotionally wedded to a theory.
 
Detective Linda Arndt is the Napoleoni of the Ramsey case. Still thinking it had been a kidnapping, she was the one who sent John Ramsey to re-search the house. When he came up from the basement screaming with the lifeless body, Arndt was immediately out of her depth.

She admits to her "head exploding" and she made a mental note of how many rounds she had on her for her weapon (18). She thought that no one would get out of the house alive.

In the program she said that she immediately knew that the murderer was still in the house, heavily implying that it was John.

I wonder if Napoleoni herself was similarly emotionally compromised by it all, and myopicly latched on to Knox, because of what N. thought of as offensive behaviour?

Either way it shows how cops themselves can get traumatized by terrible and horrid events.

Also, the treatment of **independent** investigator Lou Smit shows how independent people can get vilified by insiders emotionally wedded to a theory.

It's probably not unusual for the police to focus on certain people close to the victim after crimes like this. For me what makes the Amanda Knox case so remarkable, and far more remarkable than the Jonbenet case, is that the police continued to focus on their early suspects after the killer was found and their initial theory of the crime about Amanda texting the killer (Patrick) about a secret meeting was proven false. The arrest of Rudy Guede on November 20th should have coincided with the release of Amanda Knox as it did Patrick Lumumba. Instead, they continue to hold her and drag her through a needless trial while they meanwhile convict and sentence the actual killer. I mean the absurdity is really striking, Italy doesn't even need the pretense of an unsolved crime to string somebody up, they can just throw people in jail for already solved crimes with perpetrators already serving sentences. I suppose it's a more efficient process :D
 
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