Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Mike1711]

ETA Re Maria del Prato, the Milan daycare nursery director:

Quote:
Maria Del Prato conceded that Guede probably had a key loaned to him by one of her staff which explained why no break-in charges were lodged. Milan police did not just let him go, they checked his record with Perugia police (he had none and police knew little or nothing of him) and knew where he was for a possible later charge.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C823/

I note that fact Rudy had a key, which was given him by a member of staff, later sacked, is something the pro-Knox sites never mention.
__________________

Do you know what this word means?

Hint:- Probably does not translate into fact.

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed breach of rule 0

What probably happened is that Del Prato found herself in a bit of a spot for not reporting the crime and suggested Rudy had a key given to him by an unnamed staff member to escape a sticky situation. (Now remember not to quote what I just wrote as a fact - I did use that word.....p r o b a b l y).

 

[Mike1711]

"Maria Del Prato conceded that Guede probably had a key loaned to him by one of her staff which explained why no break-in charges were lodged." (TJMK)

LOL! This is straight from TJMK and it gives NO citation for this alleged concession nor does it even state anyone was "later sacked". Del Prado never made any such statement in her testimony. I'd hazard a guess that's why pro-Knox sites never mention it. Once again, unless you can provide a quote from del Prado and its citation, this will be consigned to the ever growing arsefact pile.

Oh my word...so the quote Vixen used is a lie. Oh well why am I not surprised.

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen as a very bad habit of accusing me of saying things I never have. And when proved wrong, she never admits it.

Tell me about it. I've been trying to get Vixen to admit that Chieffi did not task Nencini to "act osmotically."

Vixen probably just churns out the inanities and then moves on.

Probably. One says "probably" because that then makes it true.

 

[Vixen]

Do you know what this word means?

Hint:- Probably does not translate into fact.

Some might suggest that suggesting "probably" = fact would make one a liar, stupid or both. Fortunately this is a polite forum so none here would say such a thing.

What probably happened is that Del Prato found herself in a bit of a spot for not reporting the crime and suggested Rudy had a key given to him by an unnamed staff member to escape a sticky situation. (Now remember not to quote what I just wrote as a fact - I did use that word.....p r o b a b l y).

I guess it's not surprising the PIP have only ever heard the 'well-known for breaking and entry' factoid. <sigh>

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Testimony-of-Maria-del-Prato.pdf

WITNESS – I was obviously surprised and I asked him who he was and
said “I am...” he was very calm, he seemed to be at ease even though I
had found him in my office and he said
“I am from Perugia, I arrived from Perugia yesterday evening by train
and I didn’t know where I could sleep and someone told me I could
sleep here”.
DEFENSE – Avv. Donati – Listen, were there any signs of any doors or
windows being forced?
WITNESS - No, I only noticed that he had opened my cupboard probably
to look for money.
DEFENSE – Avv. Donati – So had anything been damaged, I don’t know,
the lock, a padlock?
WITNESS - No, it had not been damaged but it was open normally I lock
it and also the drawer we keep the cash in was open and some money was
missing but only a small sum, nothing...

and

DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – Listen, and in your office you have a
personal cupboard with a padlock.
WITNESS - I had a cupboard with a key, a metal cupboard.
DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – Was this cupboard stolen from during
both the first and the second thefts?
WITNESS - Yes.
DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – Did you notice that this key had been
moved?
WITNESS – Yes, yes.
DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – In the first case it was open because
you said some money had disappeared!
WITNESS – Yes in the first case it was open but to tell you the truth
no, I’m sorry but a year and a half have gone by so... no, there
wasn’t much... the cupboard wasn’t damaged, in fact the impression
was that someone had the key but I think that it was a lock that was
quite easy to unlock also without a key perhaps...
DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – Because you talk about a metal cash box
containing the sum of two thousand euros which you mentioned before...
WITNESS – Yes, but that was unlocked, that was always unlocked, the
only thing you could lock was the cupboard.
DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – I understand. And the same cupboard was
instead forced open during the second episode?
WITNESS - No, forced open no, it might have been because sometimes I
locked it and sometimes I didn’t, I don’t remember... it depends if
there was money or not. That time, the second time when I saw Mr Guede
I don’t think there was a large sum, just a small sum in cash.

And those familiar with the case are aware a member of staff suspected by Ms del Prato was sacked.

 

[Vixen]

Oh my word...so the quote Vixen used is a lie. Oh well why am I not surprised.

In which way is it a lie? Instead of wallowing in the company of mockers, the writer of the piece actually did some serious research and presented his findings. What gives you the authority to call him a liar?

 

[Stacyhs]

Not one single (valid) court agrees with you. All of the courts uphold the burglary was staged, even Marasca.

Forensic pathologists agree Mez had her bra removed after death and several ditto re her jeans.You may have noted that both Amanda and Raff mention Mez' jeans in (a) Amanda's email home and she talks of bumping hips and (b) Raff in his police statement.

These were written AFTER the murder, so Mez' jeans were at the forefront of their minds post-murder.

1) The bra was removed before she died, not after:

M. Napoleoni: " then saw this girl who was on the floor with her face lying towards the right of the viewer, with a terrible wound. Was semi-naked, had the t-shirt rolled up above the breast and lots of blood and spatters of blood even on the breast“. (Massei p103 & transcript February 27, 2009 p228)

Prof Torre: "Minute specks of aspirated blood on the chest: There isn’t any in the area covered by the garments that were pulled up which, therefore, must already have been in that position when it [aspirated blood] occurred. Similar specks on the breasts (also on the nipple). They were not covered by the bra when the spray [of blood] was deposited on them. (autopsy report)

Judge G. Borsini: "Furthermore, it seems more likely to this Court that the bra was removed from the victim during an escalation of violence enabling Guede to give vent to his sexual instincts on her....to which we can add, according to the medical consultants nominated by Knox’s defense, the round spots of blood found on the front side of her thorax and arriving there through respiration after the lethal cut proving that the garment had already been removed, as it would not make sense, on the other hand, that it had been removed in the following phase during the clean-up of the traces. (Appeal court judge for Guede)

"ditto her jeans."

Not anywhere that I've ever seen. Quote and cite your source for this claim. I'll be waiting.

Oh, wow....Amanda and Raff mentioning Meredith's jeans when describing the conversation they had with her the morning of Nov. 1 is truly evidence that the scene was staged! Very Sherlock Holmes worthy!

 

[Stacyhs]

I guess it's not surprising the PIP have only ever heard the 'well-known for breaking and entry' factoid. <sigh>

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Testimony-of-Maria-del-Prato.pdf



and



And those familiar with the case are aware a member of staff suspected by Ms del Prato was sacked.

"WITNESS – Yes in the first case it was open but to tell you the truth
no, I’m sorry but a year and a half have gone by so... no, there
wasn’t much... the cupboard wasn’t damaged, in fact the impression
was that someone had the key but I think that it was a lock that was
quite easy to unlock also without a key perhaps...DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – Because you talk about a metal cash box
containing the sum of two thousand euros which you mentioned before...
WITNESS – Yes, but that was unlocked, that was always unlocked, the
only thing you could lock was the cupboard.DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – I understand. And the same cupboard was
instead forced open during the second episode?
WITNESS - No, forced open no, it might have been because sometimes I
locked it and sometimes I didn’t, I don’t remember... it depends if
there was money or not. That time, the second time when I saw Mr Guede
I don’t think there was a large sum, just a small sum in cash.


Ok...so no concession someone probably had a key. Note she said she only locked the box when there was a large amount of money in it and there was only a "small sum" in it the day she found Guede there. Note she said the cupboard had a lock that "was quite easy to unlock also without a key perhaps."

So, you have not proved your claims at all. But thank you for providing the evidence that disproved them for us!

"And those familiar with the case are aware a member of staff suspected by Ms del Prato was sacked"

Cite your source and not just some TJMK uncited claim. You'd think you'd know by now that when you make these kinds of claims, we require a citation due to your history.

 

[bagels]

Rudy just wandered into a nursery holding stolen property and picking up a knife for innocent reasons

then a couple weeks later he wandered into a rape and murder scene for innocent reasons

What an unlucky guy he should just stay home lol

 

[Mike1711]

Delete

 

[Mike1711]

I guess it's not surprising the PIP have only ever heard the 'well-known for breaking and entry' factoid. <sigh>

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Testimony-of-Maria-del-Prato.pdf



and



And those familiar with the case are aware a member of staff suspected by Ms del Prato was sacked.

Nothing in the court transcript you provided even remotely suggests Rudy was loaned a key by a staff member.

You're just making stuff up as you go along.

...and your last paragraph is supported how?

 

[Agatha]

Two things.

Firstly, do not 'out' the real name of anybody posting on this site, not even by hints or allusion. We take rule 8 very seriously. It does not matter if the information is common knowledge, or if it has been published elsewhere. It is not relevant to the thread, and therefore it is a breach of rule 8 to post it.

Secondly, please be mindful of your membership agreements, particularly rule 0 and rule 12. It does not matter how much you disagree with another poster, you must remain civil and polite, and to address the arguments, not attack the arguer. As I have said before, if you are talking to another poster, be civil and polite. If you are talking about another poster (rather than their arguments) you are probably breaching rule 12 so don't do it.

I will be working my way back through the thread and further moderation action is likely on those previous posts; please do not continue to breach your MA in posts following this modbox.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[whoanellie]

Pl

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Vixen]

"WITNESS – Yes in the first case it was open but to tell you the truth
no, I’m sorry but a year and a half have gone by so... no, there
wasn’t much... the cupboard wasn’t damaged, in fact the impression
was that someone had the key but I think that it was a lock that was
quite easy to unlock also without a key perhaps...DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – Because you talk about a metal cash box
containing the sum of two thousand euros which you mentioned before...
WITNESS – Yes, but that was unlocked, that was always unlocked, the
only thing you could lock was the cupboard.DEFENSE – Avv. Dalla Vedova – I understand. And the same cupboard was
instead forced open during the second episode?
WITNESS - No, forced open no, it might have been because sometimes I
locked it and sometimes I didn’t, I don’t remember... it depends if
there was money or not. That time, the second time when I saw Mr Guede
I don’t think there was a large sum, just a small sum in cash.


Ok...so no concession someone probably had a key. Note she said she only locked the box when there was a large amount of money in it and there was only a "small sum" in it the day she found Guede there. Note she said the cupboard had a lock that "was quite easy to unlock also without a key perhaps."

So, you have not proved your claims at all. But thank you for providing the evidence that disproved them for us!

"And those familiar with the case are aware a member of staff suspected by Ms del Prato was sacked"

Cite your source and not just some TJMK uncited claim. You'd think you'd know by now that when you make these kinds of claims, we require a citation due to your history.

Do make an effort to read the primary sources. However, let me help:

WITNESS – Yes the fact struck me that I’d heard on television during
the news when they said that Mr Guede had a particular passion for
English or Swedish women and this made me think that one of my employees might have known Mr Guede, in particular the woman who had put the money away that evening before the theft because she shared a place with one or two Swedish women.DEFENSE – Avv. Rocchi – However following the murder you recognized
the young man who had entered your nursery school...
WITNESS – Yes, yes, also because as desktop wallpaper on his laptop he
had a photo of his with Giorgio Armani which had been broadcast...
INTERVENTION – Did you say Giorgio Armani? We didn’t understand.
WITNESS - Yes, there was a photo of him with Giorgio Armani as
wallpaper which I saw again on the Internet on the news so I worked
out it was really him.

Ms Del Prato already confirmed no locks were damaged. So, how do you work out that one of her staff directing Rudy to the nursery is breaking and entry (do look up the definition for this). Lots of itinerant people sneak into warehouses, private parks, gardens and garages to sleep for the night.

Your claim that Rudy was a seasoned burglar and therefore must have scaled the wall of Via del Pergola 7, simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. time to scrap that story you like to tell yourself.

 

[Stacyhs]

Rudy just wandered into a nursery holding stolen property and picking up a knife for innocent reasons

then a couple weeks later he wandered into a rape and murder scene for innocent reasons

What an unlucky guy he should just stay home lol

He's just misunderstood.

 

[Bill Williams]

Do make an effort to read the primary sources. However, let me help:



Ms Del Prato already confirmed no locks were damaged. So, how do you work out that one of her staff directing Rudy to the nursery is breaking and entry (do look up the definition for this). Lots of itinerant people sneak into warehouses, private parks, gardens and garages to sleep for the night.

Your claim that Rudy was a seasoned burglar and therefore must have scaled the wall of Via del Pergola 7, simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. time to scrap that story you like to tell yourself.

Nencini said Guede was a seasoned burglar. Why isn't that good enough for you?

 

[Stacyhs]

Do make an effort to read the primary sources. However, let me help:

Quote:
WITNESS – Yes the fact struck me that I’d heard on television during the news when they said that Mr Guede had a particular passion for English or Swedish women and this made me think that one of my employees might have known Mr Guede, in particular the woman who had put the money away that evening before the theft because she shared a place with one or two Swedish women.DEFENSE – Avv. Rocchi – However following the murder you recognized
the young man who had entered your nursery school...
WITNESS – Yes, yes, also because as desktop wallpaper on his laptop he
had a photo of his with Giorgio Armani which had been broadcast...
INTERVENTION – Did you say Giorgio Armani? We didn’t understand.
WITNESS - Yes, there was a photo of him with Giorgio Armani as
wallpaper which I saw again on the Internet on the news so I worked
out it was really him.


Ms Del Prato already confirmed no locks were damaged. So, how do you work out that one of her staff directing Rudy to the nursery is breaking and entry (do look up the definition for this). Lots of itinerant people sneak into warehouses, private parks, gardens and garages to sleep for the night.

Your claim that Rudy was a seasoned burglar and therefore must have scaled the wall of Via del Pergola 7, simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. time to scrap that story you like to tell yourself.

So Guede liked Swedish women and del Prato's employee had Swedish roommates. This is as much evidence of their involvement as my claiming the fact Guede liked English women is evidence he killed Meredith. In other words, it isn't any evidence at all. Del Prato jumped to an unsupported conclusion that the two were connected. Has there ever been any proof the Swedish roommates and Guede had ever even met? No.

You have still failed to provide evidence that any staff member was fired.

I've never said Guede broke in. For all we know, he picked the lock. Or maybe the door was mistakenly left unlocked and Guede, looking for a place to crash, found it unlocked. Who knows? What we do know is that he wasn't supposed to be there and stole a knife from the kitchen. Now, why would he steal a knife from the kitchen?

Guede was caught red-handed by Tramontano and his girlfriend in his apartment, threatened him with a knife, and stole credit cards and cash. He was caught with stolen property from the law office which had an eerily similar break-in by throwing a rock through a second story window and scaling a wall higher than Filomena's. But he wasn't a thief, was he? Time to scrap that story you like to tell yourself.

 

[Vixen]

So Guede liked Swedish women and del Prato's employee had Swedish roommates. This is as much evidence of their involvement as my claiming the fact Guede liked English women is evidence he killed Meredith. In other words, it isn't any evidence at all. Del Prato jumped to an unsupported conclusion that the two were connected. Has there ever been any proof the Swedish roommates and Guede had ever even met? No.

You have still failed to provide evidence that any staff member was fired.

I've never said Guede broke in. For all we know, he picked the lock. Or maybe the door was mistakenly left unlocked and Guede, looking for a place to crash, found it unlocked. Who knows? What we do know is that he wasn't supposed to be there and stole a knife from the kitchen. Now, why would he steal a knife from the kitchen?

Guede was caught red-handed by Tramontano and his girlfriend in his apartment, threatened him with a knife, and stole credit cards and cash. He was caught with stolen property from the law office which had an eerily similar break-in by throwing a rock through a second story window and scaling a wall higher than Filomena's. But he wasn't a thief, was he? Time to scrap that story you like to tell yourself.

Tramontano was not even called to give evidence as the judge did not believe his story.

Curatalo and Quintavalle the courts found credible and creditable witnesses.

It leaps out that del Prato had grave doubts about one of her employees, with €2K unaccountably going missing a couple of weeks before.

From the transcript, you can see she believes Rudy's story about someone directing him there.

So Rudy helped himself. That's what uncouth 20 year old yobs do. It's a massive leap of conclusion to constitute this as proof, 'Rudy was a burglar who was interrupted so viciously raped and murdered a woman for no reason'.

You note De Prato says Rudy was completely calm and laid back about being caught trespassing in her nursery. That doesn't sound like someone with a vicious uncontrollable temper.

 

[Stacyhs]

From the Nencini sentencing report:

"Rudi Hermann Guede besides having a specific experience in intruding into others’ homes to commit theft (his precedents, remarked in multiple court documents, speak for themselves), knew perfectly the cottage” (page 73-74)

“Rudi Hermann Guede, surely expert in breaking and entering to commit theft” (page 74)

“Rudi Hermann Guede, skilled and shrewd thief”. (page 78).

But somehow, poor Rudy, really wasn't a thief and didn't really break into places he had no business being.

 

[Stacyhs]

Tramontano was not even called to give evidence as the judge did not believe his story.

Curatalo and Quintavalle the courts found credible and creditable witnesses.

1) Cite evidence that the judge "did not believe his story".

2) Only the convicting courts found either of them credible. Hellmann and Marasca did not find them credible at all.

Why did Quintavalle deny having seen Amanda within one week of the murder when shown a photo by Volturno? Why did he only come forward more than a year later after being prodded by the same reporter who found Nara Capezzali (who claimed she knew of the murder before it was even discovered). Why did the cashier say she had not seen Amanda that morning?

Oh, yes,...Curatolo, who had testified for the police in THREE previous murder trials, was a derelict heroin attack admittedly high the night of the murder, who changed the times he saw Knox and Sollecito, and claimed he was sure what night it was due to the people in costumes and getting on busses to the disco. Too bad that was the night before the murder.

Yep, TOTALLY credible!

 

[Stacyhs]

Tramontano was not even called to give evidence as the judge did not believe his story.

Curatalo and Quintavalle the courts found credible and creditable witnesses.

It leaps out that del Prato had grave doubts about one of her employees, with €2K unaccountably going missing a couple of weeks before.

From the transcript, you can see she believes Rudy's story about someone directing him there.

So Rudy helped himself. That's what uncouth 20 year old yobs do. It's a massive leap of conclusion to constitute this as proof, 'Rudy was a burglar who was interrupted so viciously raped and murdered a woman for no reason'.

You note De Prato says Rudy was completely calm and laid back about being caught trespassing in her nursery. That doesn't sound like someone with a vicious uncontrollable temper.

Um, no...it does not "leap out" at all. Let me guess, this is the employee she later fired that you have presented no evidence of actually happening at all?

Yes, Rudy helped himself. That's what 20 yr old unemployed and penniless yobs do. He "helped" himself to other people's property.

Rudy had more of a motive to kill Meredith than Amanda and Raffaele. She'd just caught him burglarizing her home. The prosecution couldn't come up with a credible, or even consistent, motive for Amanda or Raffaele.

The fact that del Prato had two grown men with her just might have had some effect on how Guede reacted, ya think? By the way, no one said Guede had a "vicious and uncontrollable temper". Rapist and murderers don't have to have bad tempers. Just thought I'd point that out.