Trump runs for POTUS / Trumped Up! Part V

[Bob001]

Where does this come from? Forbes seems to think he is. Four and a half times over!
http://www.forbes.com/profile/donald-trump/

But he claims to be worth $10 billion. He sued author Tim O'Brien for alleging in a book in the 1990s that Trump was worth just $150 to $250 million. The suit was dismissed, but the parties agreed to confidentiality. But O'Brien has recently said as much as he could.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/431575/donald-trump-tim-obrien-courtroom-story
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-07-21/dear-mr-trump-i-m-worth-10-billion-too-

The underlying issues involve the actual market value of the properties he says he owns and how much he owes on them. If you own a $2 million dollar house and have a $1 million dollar mortgage, it might be fair to say you're worth a million dollars. But suppose the house is only worth $1 million. Then what? Supposed you own it with three partners. How much is yours? (Maybe you don't have equal shares.) Suppose the house is assessed at $500,000, and you owe $1 million, but you claim your beachfront/lakefront/mountain view is "fabulous" and worth $10 million? Multiply those questions by thousands for Trump.

 

[Dog Town]

Has Trump given Forbes his financial records?

They don't need them.

 

[Stacko]

Bloomberg says thats too high.
The NYT reports that he has massive debts
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/donald-trump-debt.html
His entire empire is opaque
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/donald-trump-money-net-worth-223662

In short, we only know what Trump says about Trump's wealth. We also know that US banks will no longer lend to him.

In the documentary Born Rich, Ivanka Trump tells how her father once pointed to a homeless man and said he had “$8 billion more than me” due to Trump’s debt.

Without tax returns we can not know.

You have to love the, "I can't release my tax returns because the government thinks they may be fraudulent," excuse.

 

[acbytesla]

Where does this come from? Forbes seems to think he is. Four and a half times over!
http://www.forbes.com/profile/donald-trump/

They're guessing. But without financial records that are not publicly held, that's all it is. For people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and others who's biggest assets are stocks of publicly held stock, it's simply a matter of checking the stock prices. Trump's value is based on the assets he owns, and perhaps the most valuable asset is his brand, which is based entirely on perception. Trump himself said in an interview or maybe it was a deposition that it depended on his mood. Lots of his other assets may be saddled with debt and in truth don't really belong to Trump.

Keep in mind that the press are easily and frequently fooled.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump's wealth is bound in real estate - he seems to have a very low cash-flow, given that he can't even pay his current advisers.
His tower is obviously not sufficiently occupied, or he couldn't put his campaign in there (and make it pay inflated prices).
Should he fall too far behind with is loan payments (as has happened in the past), the creditors might just sell off his assets, at massive discount, of course.
At best, Trump is a billionaire on paper only.

 

[Dog Town]

They're guessing. But without financial records that are not publicly held, that's all it is. For people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and others who's biggest assets are stocks of publicly held stock, it's simply a matter of checking the stock prices. Trump's value is based on the assets he owns, and perhaps the most valuable asset is his brand, which is based entirely on perception. Trump himself said in an interview or maybe it was a deposition that it depended on his mood. Lots of his other assets may be saddled with debt and in truth don't really belong to Trump.

Keep in mind that the press are easily and frequently fooled.

Yes, but Forbes has been successful at doing this for sometime.
He is easily a Billionaire. There are a Billion things to attack him over. This one is just silly.

 

[Dog Town]

At best, Trump is a billionaire on paper only.

Where did those goal posts go?

 

[Bob001]

Not all contract language is legal. So by law, you cannot sign away certain rights whether you sign or not.

You can't enforce a contract that requires an illegal act or violates public policy. You can't sue someone for failing to deliver the illegal drugs you paid him for, you can't be compelled to give up a kidney you agreed to sell, etc. But when people sign arbitration agreements, they are voluntarily agreeing to waive their rights to sue in court in exchange for goods and services. You don't have to rent a car, obtain a credit card or connect cable TV. Sure, some contracts might be unenforceable, especially if they're not drafted by knowledgable lawyers. But arbitration agreements usually aren't among them. And even if someone sues you for violating the terms of an illegal contract, you have to respond in court and prove it's illegal.

 

[acbytesla]

They don't need them.

Well other than through a crystal ball, how would Forbes know?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Yes, but Forbes has been successful at doing this for sometime.
He is easily a Billionaire. There are a Billion things to attack him over. This one is just silly.

It's not: Trump, even under oath in court systematically overestimates his wealth. He claims that owning 30% is worth more than 50%, he claims property to be his that he only lend his name to.
Trump's business success is the core of his appeal. If you had a general run for office, wouldn't you want to know the service record? Why does Trump get away with claiming to have 3x the money that even Forbes says he has?

 

[Dog Town]

Well other than through a crystal ball, how would Forbes know?

Research. Owing money on loans does not destroy wealth. His brand is worth quite a lot, alone.


ETA: Can't believe I am defending him. I just think this angle of attack is, silly, and useless.
I've said all worth saying on this.
Done!

Enjoy...

 

[Bob001]

Research. Owing money on loans does not destroy wealth. His brand is worth quite a lot, alone.

That's what he says. But how much is it worth? Would you pay more to stay at a hotel with Trump on the sign than you would at a comparable property without it? How much much more will you pay for "Trump" steaks or "Trump" bottled water or "Trump" neck ties? Much of Trump's income comes from licensing his name to the credulous. But many of those properties have failed, like his AC casinos, not to mention Trump U. So how much is his "brand" worth, and how would you calculate it?

And anybody's "wealth" is basically their assets minus their liabilities. That's not a complex concept.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, but Forbes has been successful at doing this for sometime.
He is easily a Billionaire. There are a Billion things to attack him over. This one is just silly.

LMAO. No, they haven't. It is a well known fact that Forbes estimates are based only on public records and what people tell them. There are a significant number of Billionaires that want no part of having the world know how much they are worth and others like Trump who want the world to think they may be wealthier than they actually are.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump once sued Timothy O'Brian for claiming that he was only a Multi-Millonaire. Trump had to open his books and LOST the lawsuit.
The Deutsche Bank also doesn't consider him to be a billionaire.
Why don't you check his Wiki?
Even the most generous reading doesn't put him past $1.4 billion.

 

[Bob001]

LMAO. No, they haven't. It is a well known fact that Forbes estimates are based only on public records and what people tell them.
....

This is what Forbes says:

To estimate billionaires’ net worths we value individuals’ assets, including stakes in public and private companies, real estate, yachts, art and cash–and account for debt.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryad...ology-how-we-crunch-the-numbers/#7bf20dff1511

The subject himself wouldn't necessarily have to be the source of that information. People who compete in the same industries (like NY real estate, in Trump's case), who sell things to billionaires (like art and yachts), etc., would have pretty realistic views about asset values. And Trump certainly wouldn't claim not to own something attributed to him.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You can't enforce a contract that requires an illegal act or violates public policy. You can't sue someone for failing to deliver the illegal drugs you paid him for, you can't be compelled to give up a kidney you agreed to sell, etc. But when people sign arbitration agreements, they are voluntarily agreeing to waive their rights to sue in court in exchange for goods and services. You don't have to rent a car, obtain a credit card or connect cable TV. Sure, some contracts might be unenforceable, especially if they're not drafted by knowledgable lawyers. But arbitration agreements usually aren't among them. And even if someone sues you for violating the terms of an illegal contract, you have to respond in court and prove it's illegal.

I can give you an example. The law requires employers provide hepatitis B vaccine if the employee's job entails risk of exposure, but the employee is free to decline the vaccine. Some employers had employees sign agreements the employer would not cover hep B infection with worker's comp insurance should it arise in an unvaccinated worker. That was not a legal contract. You cannot sign away your worker's comp rights. It had nothing to do with illegal acts.

 

[ddt]

But he claims to be worth $10 billion. He sued author Tim O'Brien for alleging in a book in the 1990s that Trump was worth just $150 to $250 million. The suit was dismissed, but the parties agreed to confidentiality. But O'Brien has recently said as much as he could.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/431575/donald-trump-tim-obrien-courtroom-story
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-07-21/dear-mr-trump-i-m-worth-10-billion-too-

The underlying issues involve the actual market value of the properties he says he owns and how much he owes on them. If you own a $2 million dollar house and have a $1 million dollar mortgage, it might be fair to say you're worth a million dollars. But suppose the house is only worth $1 million. Then what? Supposed you own it with three partners. How much is yours? (Maybe you don't have equal shares.) Suppose the house is assessed at $500,000, and you owe $1 million, but you claim your beachfront/lakefront/mountain view is "fabulous" and worth $10 million? Multiply those questions by thousands for Trump.

You left out the single most important line item on Trump's balance sheet. From the National Review article you linked to:
]quote]A footnote in the superior court’s ruling relates: “Trump contends that O’Brien acknowledged that his name was a valuable asset, calling it ‘bigger than Coke and Pepsi.’ That statement is incorrect. The claim was reported in a BusinessWeek article as emanating from Trump himself.”[/quote]
Yep, Trump has valued his own brand name at a couple of billions, surely.

And I can't see any CPA worth their salt signing off on a financial statement after all these things have been in the press without a very big depreciation on the value of his name.

 

[acbytesla]

Research. Owing money on loans does not destroy wealth. His brand is worth quite a lot, alone.

I have no doubt that Trump's brand has value, but determining what that value is exceedingly difficult. Trump in a single day a few years ago said his brand was worth as little as 200 million to 5 billion dollars. That's a wide range. And yes, owing money IS NEGATIVE WEALTH. If you own a piece of property valued at 1 billion dollars and you have outstanding loans valued at 1.5 billion dollars, your net worth is a negative half a billion dollars.

ETA: Can't believe I am defending him. I just think this angle of attack is, silly, and useless.
I've said all worth saying on this.
Done!

Enjoy...

I don't think it's wrong for you to make this suggestion. I know this, Trump is not poor. But I also know that Trump exaggerates anything and everything about himself. It goes to his credibility. He said he would release financial statements and his taxes but he didnt. That says he's a liar and he's hiding something.

 

[acbytesla]

This is what Forbes says:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryad...ology-how-we-crunch-the-numbers/#7bf20dff1511

The subject himself wouldn't necessarily have to be the source of that information. People who compete in the same industries (like NY real estate, in Trump's case), who sell things to billionaires (like art and yachts), etc., would have pretty realistic views about asset values. And Trump certainly wouldn't claim not to own something attributed to him.

I know what Forbes says, trying to be an authority, But given that the list has 400 people on it and financial infomation can be complex I doubt that Forbes has the resources to do much more than a rough review. The list is also not a legal document, so they have no duty to get it right. Banks don't just hand over private documents and neither do attorneys and accountants.

 

[logger]

You have to love the, "I can't release my tax returns because the government thinks they may be fraudulent," excuse.

I would say he's waiting to see what they find. If they find something(s) he'll settle up with them, then release. It's much better politically to have these issues with the IRS settled before going public with it. This audit was perfect timing for him.