JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[turingtest]

Anybody seen the Mail Online this morning?

Oliver Stone now believes a Secret Service agent with military jargon has confessed a member of the security team shot JFK.

I looked it up; story here for anyone interested. Money quote:

He [Stone] decided to reveal the man's confession for the first time to Matt Zoller Seitz, who is the author of a forthcoming book on Stone, the Oscar–winning screenwriter and director whose classics include Platoon, about the trauma of the Vietnam War.

Of course- a confession that solves the crime of the (last) century, and the proper person to reveal it to is a guy writing a book that will profit by the revelation.

 

[BStrong]

I looked it up; story here for anyone interested. Money quote:



Of course- a confession that solves the crime of the (last) century, and the proper person to reveal it to is a guy writing a book that will profit by the revelation.

Having been educated by our British corespondents here as to the veracity of the Daily Mail, I was not surprised to see this story or this interesting tidbit:

Stone, 69, said his doubts about 'Ron' were dispelled. As a former marine in Vietnam, the film-maker was convinced by the 'military jargon' and intricate details within an account that he describes as 'plausible' and 'very authentic'.

From Stone's wiki page:

In April 1967, Stone enlisted in the United States Army and requested combat duty in Vietnam. From September 16, 1967 to April 1968, he served with 2nd Platoon, B Company, 3rd Battalion, 25th Infantry Division in Vietnam where he was wounded two times,[11] and with the First Cavalry Division participating in long range patrols before being transferred again to a motorized infantry unit of the division in Vietnam driving army vehicles until November 1968.[12]

For his service, his military awards include the Bronze Star with "V" Device for heroism, the Purple Heart with Bronze Oak Leaf Cluster to denote two awards, the Air Medal, the Army Commendation Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Combat Infantryman Badge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Stone#U.S._Army

I call ******** on Stone's new story.

 

[Pope130]

More like Rule 0 & Rule 12.

On 22 november, it'll be 53 years since his assasination. 53 YEARS!! WHAT DO CTERS HOPE TO ACHIEVE AFTER ALL THOSE YEARS??

Well, the Lincoln assassination CTers are still going. The JFKers could have a century left in them.

 

[MicahJava]

Wrong. He laid 5 rounds on target at circa 700 yards. I know this because I actually communicated with the guy on that very point because of these very claims about JFK. That is a significantly longer range than anything LHO had to do.

Your claim held no water before, but now desiccation is setting in. He isn't simply cycling the action and firing at random. Read this sentence carefully...

He laid 5 rounds on target at 700 yards in less time than Oswald took to lay one out of three.

Now I am pretty sure that there is a reason that CTers don't check these things. It spoils their narrative to actually find things which upset the apple cart. Tough luck to them, reality does not care.

Feel free to contact the guy, he was very polite and correct and willing to respond. Bear in mind, that it was some time ago, so it is possible that his view of such contact may have grown more cynical in the interim. I couldn't say.

But we already know what will actually happen. No contact will be made, only excuses will be made. You prefer the fantasy.

No fantasy here. I'll keep that video in mind, but I don't buy that it's close to the real thing for obvious reasons. 2.3 seconds is the generally agreed-upon minimum for cycling the bolt while theoretically being accurate enough. The real question is: Do you acknowledge that the last two loud shots in the assassination were close together?

I actually have a torn 5, about 40% of it. I never did anything with it although I could. Why? Because the effort would cost more than 5. Nevertheless, since I possess such a thing, this means I am a spy.

Can you not see the flaw in such bovine reasoning?

I have already explained why the dollar bills are significant enough to rule out any notion of this being some kind of coincidence. For one thing, all three artifacts have unexplained three-digit notations, circled. Secondly, it would seem that the two half $1 bill portions were found in Oswald's other belongings, and not in his wallet where the intact torn $1 bill was found (if the halved bills were indeed found in his wallet, then there had to be an immediate effort to remove it from becoming a record.

 

[MicahJava]

Who checks their wallet every morning?

More importantly, the stuff that WAS in Oswald's wallet looks like an attempt to live out a fantasy with his fake IDs. The odds are in favor of him stacking his wallet to look like some kind of James Bond in hopes of special treatment if he got caught.

I guess it's pointless bringing up the evidence that there exists two or even three wallets purportedly owned by Oswald? It's all because he likes to play James Bond games? How convenient.

As far as the theater goes, I worked in a movie theater for 2 years. They're dark when the movie is on. How did he plan to match his bill with the mate IN THE DARK?

Say a code phrase and match two parts. From very little light you'll be able to tell that both portions match.

 

[BStrong]

No fantasy here. I'll keep that video in mind, but I don't buy that it's close to the real thing for obvious reasons. 2.3 seconds is the generally agreed-upon minimum for cycling the bolt while theoretically being accurate enough. The real question is: Do you acknowledge that the last two loud shots in the assassination were close together?




I have already explained why the dollar bills are significant enough to rule out any notion of this being some kind of coincidence. For one thing, all three artifacts have unexplained three-digit notations, circled. Secondly, it would seem that the two half $1 bill portions were found in Oswald's other belongings, and not in his wallet where the intact torn $1 bill was found (if the halved bills were indeed found in his wallet, then there had to be an immediate effort to remove it from becoming a record.

Poor man's version of bank cash banding.

Still waiting for your evidence of what "the best snipers in the world" have said about LHO's shooting.

 

[abaddon]

No fantasy here. I'll keep that video in mind, but I don't buy that it's close to the real thing for obvious reasons. 2.3 seconds is the generally agreed-upon minimum for cycling the bolt while theoretically being accurate enough. The real question is: Do you acknowledge that the last two loud shots in the assassination were close together?

Generally agreed by whom? Because it clearly is not as witnessed by the video I posted. Insisting that it is in the face of actual evidence is the epitomy of fantasy.

An "No" is the answer to your further question. You fail to address the accoustic parameters of Dealey Plaza in a further fantasy.

I have already explained why the dollar bills are significant enough to rule out any notion of this being some kind of coincidence.

Rubbish. I actually have half a fiver for decades which I could, in theory, redeem somewhere in the recesses of my wallet. Why have I not done so? Couldn't be bothered. This, in MicahJava fantasy world, proves that I am some kind of spy.

For one thing, all three artifacts have unexplained three-digit notations, circled.

Except that such notations are terribly common in banks. I have had countless notes pass through my hands with indelible marks on them. Banks make such annotations as a matter of course.

Secondly, it would seem that the two half $1 bill portions were found in Oswald's other belongings, and not in his wallet where the intact torn $1 bill was found (if the halved bills were indeed found in his wallet, then there had to be an immediate effort to remove it from becoming a record.

Citation please, and it is still fantasy. He could have found those in the street and intended to redeem them for all you know.

Stop pretending to knowledge that you cannot possibly have and demonstrably don't.

 

[abaddon]

I guess it's pointless bringing up the evidence that there exists two or even three wallets purportedly owned by Oswald? It's all because he likes to play James Bond games? How convenient.

As we speak, I can lay hands on three of mine, with a further two at least languishing in various drawers. Why is this significant?

The newest of these is a gift received from my daughters just last Friday. Presumably, in your fantasy world, they are the couriers for my spy network at the tender age of 11 and 14.

Can you not see how ludicrous this whole proposition is?

Say a code phrase and match two parts. From very little light you'll be able to tell that both portions match.

And like any spy, carry the means to incriminate yourself when you are intercepted. Sorry for the fantasy, but there are more sophisticated and subtle methods of validation than that which have been in use since long before JFK.

You can just picture it...

Suspicious Spy: You have your half of the dollar?

Suspicious Handler: What dollar? Are you an agent?

Suspicious Spy: Show me your half dollar and I will show you mine.

Suspicious Handler: Are you trying to entrap me?

And so forth. As a recognition method, it would be mostly useless except in Hollywood.

Think about it for a moment. If spy and handler are known to each other, they don't need it. If spy and handler are unknown to each other, neither will admit to having it. (unless they are daft).

Suppose our covert operative experiences some emergency and gets exposed. He/she then escapes and makes their way to a nearest safe haven, an embassy, whatever. Somehow, the matching half dollar just happens to be present at that particular location as opposed to all of the other possible thousands of locations. Unlikely. Covert ops does not leave such things to chance. It follows that our putative spy must cool his/her heels until the correspond half dollar gets transported to the putative spy's location or vice versa. Using such a method would likely mean that any possible intelligence would be out of date, and there is still no guarantee that the putative agent is not a double carrying what was found on the actual captured and tortured agent and that the identity could easily be verified by other means in a fraction of the time.

 

[JayUtah]

2.3 seconds is the generally agreed-upon minimum for cycling the bolt while theoretically being accurate enough.

From very little light you'll be able to tell that both portions match.

Both of these propositions seem to be nothing but your say-so. Where did the 2.3-second figure come from? You say there is "general[] agree[ment]" on it -- among whom? As for the dollar bill, I dispute the claim that a darkened cinema allows enough light to verify that two torn halves of a bill came from the same bill. That requires matching the torn edge to a high degree of precision as well as reading serial numbers. Since the average person's ability to do that under those conditions is testable, I'm thinking this is something you'll have to prove rather than something you can just dictate.

 

[tinribmancer]

Oh...My...God...

Well, the Lincoln assassination CTers are still going. The JFKers could have a century left in them.

...that's...more than a century ago...

Let's be honest, a CTers average IQ is -70, right?

 

[Axxman300]

Say a code phrase and match two parts. From very little light you'll be able to tell that both portions match.

Had Oswald bought a ticket for the movie you might be able to make a claim, but he didn't, meaning his incursion into the theater was not planned.

Should point out that $1 was a lot of money in 1963, and he might have had the bill in his wallet fully intending to visit a bank on pay-day to exchange it for a new one. $1 would by a sandwich and coffee with change left over for a tip.

The fact that Oswald kept a torn dollar bill in his wallet just showed how broke he was, and is not proof of conspiracy.

 

[marplots]

The fact that Oswald kept a torn dollar bill in his wallet just showed how broke he was, and is not proof of conspiracy.

Or he was an amateur magician. I carried one in mine for Berland's Bill Tear for ages. Not a bad trick, actually.

 

[kookbreaker]

I would also like to know the source of 2.3 seconds. My own experience with a number of bolt action rifles is that it doesn't take that long unless you are very unfamiliar with the operation.

In combat, soldiers using non-straight pull bolt actions were expected to fire at least 10 aimed rounds a minute. If over 20 seconds (9 cyclings) are needed just to chamber rounds it won't go well. Especially since you will have to reload at least once in that minute.

 

[JayUtah]

I would also like to know the source of 2.3 seconds.

I actually know where the 2.3-second figure (which I mistyped above as 2-3) comes from. I want to know whether MicahJava knows, because there's a punchline to it. Further, although I know where the claimed figure comes from, I want the source to the claim that it is a generally agreed upon figure. (That's an embellishment in the conspiracy lore.)

My own experience with a number of bolt action rifles is that it doesn't take that long unless you are very unfamiliar with the operation.

Agreed. The old Springfield magazine-fed bolt-action I got when I was 12 could perform better than that. When I sold it when I went to college, I could cycle the action without even losing aim.

 

[BStrong]

I actually know where the 2.3-second figure (which I mistyped above as 2-3) comes from. I want to know whether MicahJava knows, because there's a punchline to it. Further, although I know where the claimed figure comes from, I want the source to the claim that it is a generally agreed upon figure. (That's an embellishment in the conspiracy lore.)



Agreed. The old Springfield magazine-fed bolt-action I got when I was 12 could perform better than that. When I sold it when I went to college, I could cycle the action without even losing aim.

Anyone that has shot the National Match course of fire w/ a Springfield '03 would agree.

ETA - Anybody care to wager if we'll ever read what "the best snipers in the world" have to say about LHO's marksmanship?

 

[kookbreaker]

I actually know where the 2.3-second figure (which I mistyped above as 2-3) comes from. I want to know whether MicahJava knows, because there's a punchline to it. Further, although I know where the claimed figure comes from, I want the source to the claim that it is a generally agreed upon figure. (That's an embellishment in the conspiracy lore.)

Is this that video of a Buff holding a Carcano stating that it takes 2-3 seconds to cycle bolt and then demonstrates this by cycling it in less than a second and continuing to talk like nothing was wrong?

Sorry, did I give away the punchline?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Is this that video of a Buff holding a Carcano stating that it takes 2-3 seconds to cycle bolt and then demonstrates this by cycling it in less than a second and continuing to talk like nothing was wrong?

Sorry, did I give away the punchline?

Or is it that one where Alex Jones makes a video claiming it would be impossible to fire 3 shots in the time-frame, and then fires 5 or 6?
I enjoyed that one.

 

[Border Reiver]

I would also like to know the source of 2.3 seconds. My own experience with a number of bolt action rifles is that it doesn't take that long unless you are very unfamiliar with the operation.

In combat, soldiers using non-straight pull bolt actions were expected to fire at least 10 aimed rounds a minute. If over 20 seconds (9 cyclings) are needed just to chamber rounds it won't go well. Especially since you will have to reload at least once in that minute.

That and the "Mad Minute" would have been impossible. Fifteen rounds, minimum, with at least two reloads in one minute with a Lee Enfield bolt action rifle.

The record for the mad minute is 36 rounds on paper in one minute.

 

[kookbreaker]

That and the "Mad Minute" would have been impossible. Fifteen rounds, minimum, with at least two reloads in one minute with a Lee Enfield bolt action rifle.

The record for the mad minute is 36 rounds on paper in one minute.

To be fair, the LE is a straight pull, the Carcano is not.

 

[JayUtah]

Sorry, did I give away the punchline?

No, you're giving away neither the source nor the punchline. I'm highly interested whether Malbec MicahJava knows the source for his claim, or whether he's just repeating something he was told.

And yes, I miss my old '03.