Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Interestingly...it is the very same ' hazy' photo from which you determined Amanda's hair looked dirty!
Duh. :rolleyes:

I didn't say 'dirty' just not freshly washed and coiffured that morning.

If this is the 'after' photo, where's the 'before'?

ETA: Amy Frost testified that hours after the body was discovered Amanda Knox told her that she never took a shower, that she had noticed the blood and this stopped her from showering. http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Massei_Trial#Amy_Frost
 

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That really is nonsense, because in effect Marasca is saying perps who manage to delay the discovery of a body rendering estimating the exact time of death as extremely difficult should be acquitted.
It is you peddling nonsense. AK and RS are directly responsible for the early discovery of the body! The morning of Nov 2 they were phoning everyone calling attention to the cottage. A guilty AK and RS had the means to delay discovery of the body until Monday.

Be that as it may, even Giuliano Mignini admits it was he who directed the pathologist NOT to take the body temperature, thus a T.O.D. which could have been known relatively early became guess-work in the trials to come. (All except for stomach contents, which itself gives a window for T.O.D. The discussion is in the Marasca report - which you have obviously not read.)

Marasca did not have the jurisdiction to come to an opinion on Time of Death. If it had concerns, it should have remitted it back to the lower courts to try the issue again.

<........... yada yada yada...........>

Judges have wide-ranging powers and there is no error of law in Massei or Nencini's decision in this.
You either have a reading comprehension issue, or you have not read the Marasca report. Sollecito's team objected to Nencini's decision to say that it was not crucial to determine T.O.D., because in a circumstantial case like this one, T.O.D. is a crucial matter in determining the alibi for someone who admits to being at the crime-scene - but admits to being there well past when the murder took place. The prosecution simply cannot simply keep sliding the TOD to various times to suit their ever-changing set of theories/motives.

Add in the sloppiness by which the original investigators handled the T.O.D. issue - Mignini's own admission - and the issue is NOT, Marasca "coming to an opinion on the T.O.D.", it is the issue exactly as Marasca states in law that T.O.D. is crucial to a case like this. Nencini said it wasn't. Nencini was wrong, in law. Nencini erred in not ruling in favour of the Sollecito objections on this point, and it had a direct bearing on the false conviction as a result.

What is also interesting your fundamental misunderstanding of what Marasca wrote is that by disputing one of the key points (found in Section 6.2) you are implicitly conceding one of the reasons why Marasca acquitted - you just think Section 5 did it on an invalid point.

Hoots!

The is no logical reason, 'Mez must have been killed as soon as the last call at 10:15 was made'.
Please stop using that term of endearment. It is offensive to have someone like you use it.

Once again, Marasca goes through the "logic" in Section 6. Refute that point by point, rather than simply declare your opinion right and his wrong.

What is more compelling is the collaborative evidence of at least five independent witnesses noting a flurry of activity and sounds at around 10:30.
No it's not. For all the reasons others have posted here, and once again you have not either read or dealt with Marasca's reasons. You need to refute them rather than simply declare them wrong with no other comment! You really don't get it, do you, that saying, "No it wasn't" isn't an argument!

Even then, Rudy is alleged by the defence to have pottered around the cottage for at least 1'40" since purportedly arriving at circa 8:45. Mez' false imprisonment, torture and restraint could have been stretched out for far longer than the estimated agonisingly long ten minutes it took her to die from her final fatal wound.
Could have? Now you are arguing FOR Marasca's point that establishing TOD is crucial for establishing alibi's! Hoots!

Marasca saying Nencini erred, errs itself. It is exactly like the Hellmann court, abjectly illogical, piecemeal and intellectually dishonest. It is so embarrassingly defective, both judges have been taken off the judiciary.
Once again a simple declaration on your part. You obviously cannot back up these declarations - if you could, you would.

Bruno has been given a fancy job title to avoid his suing for compo, but he is now on a desk job, as it were. The equivalent of a top detective being moved to traffic duties.
Your bias is now completely transparent. When you have no proof of something, you hurl insults.

All for Mez I suppose.
 
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ETA: Amy Frost testified that hours after the body was discovered Amanda Knox told her that she never took a shower, that she had noticed the blood and this stopped her from showering.

TMOMK says:
According to Frost Amanda Knox told her that she had noticed the blood before she took a shower and so never proceeded to do so. Few people believe Knox's claim that she took a shower that morning.

The Transcript reads:
AF: No. She had decided not to take a shower because she had seen the blood and had to return to his house. Then both of them had gone to Meredith's house. Then she tried to kick in the door of Meredith's room. And then he also said that for both of them it had seemed strange that the poo in the toilet had disappeared.
GM: Before we go on, one more question. So it was Raffaele who told you this?
AF: Yes.
GM: So Raffaele told you that Amanda had seen the blood and therefore had not taken a shower.
AF: Yes.

Amy said that Raffaele said that Amanda said...
 
Paolo Bruno

Paolo Bruno

According to wiki is 81 and was a minister under Andreotti, Bongiorno's great hero, and whom she got off Mafia charges.

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Bruno&prev=search

Well, if Marasca is 'too old' at 70 (Staceyhs said this, I believe) what hope for his pal, who also had Bongiorno get him off Mafia charges.

A more openly corrupt process than Bruno browbeating the Fifth Chambers late into the night to acquit his ex-counsel's clients, is hard to imagine.

Even Bill Williams has to keep scouring the MR, in his quest to make sense of it.
 
TMOMK says:


The Transcript reads:


Amy said that Raffaele said that Amanda said...

Amanda-apologist newspaper the GRAUNIAD writes:

Knox has claimed she took a shower at the house she shared with Kercher on the morning before Kercher's body was discovered there. But Frost said that Knox had told her that morning she had not showered. "Amanda told me she had seen blood [in the bathroom] and therefore decided not to have a shower," she said.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/13/meredith-kercher-prosecutor-amanda-knox-supporters

The barrister asking Amy if Raff told her that, does not preclude Amanda also telling her.

Unfortunately for Amy, the barrister gets to ask the questions and 'yes'/'no' questions can be misleading as both are absolutes, yet there are many shades of grey in between either 'yes' or 'no' and a witness is not allowed to elaborate unless invited to do so.
 
Amanda-apologist newspaper the GRAUNIAD writes:

The barrister asking Amy if Raff told her that, does not preclude Amanda also telling her.

Unfortunately for Amy, the barrister gets to ask the questions and 'yes'/'no' questions can be misleading as both are absolutes, yet there are many shades of grey in between either 'yes' or 'no' and a witness is not allowed to elaborate unless invited to do so.

It's Giuliano Mignini who is questioning Amy and he asks twice by rephrasing the question!!

1) Before we go on, one more question. So it was Raffaele who told you this?
1) Yes.
2) So Raffaele told you that Amanda had seen the blood and therefore had not taken a shower.
2) Yes.

So the GRAUNIAD got it wrong, TMOMK got it wrong. That's why you should rely on primary sources.

I don't think you seriously believe what you wrote in the last paragraph.
 
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A more openly corrupt process than Bruno browbeating the Fifth Chambers late into the night to acquit his ex-counsel's clients, is hard to imagine.

Even Bill Williams has to keep scouring the MR, in his quest to make sense of it.

I don't think I've ever been brow-beaten so much for actually quoting a source!

The best way to muddle-up the Marasca-Bruno report is not to read it. The second best way to do that is to cherry pick points from it and declare those points to be unblemished and absolute truth.........

And then read the context within the report and say that the thing cannot be made sense of. You've managed both!!!!

Vixen - you simply cannot have it both ways.

StacyHS is absolutely correct - the Marasca/Bruno report had to skate within the lines of established judicial truth. But Mike1711 is also absolutely right - they don't necessarily agree with those judicial truths, but they are bound by them.

Once again, you seem to have a reading deficiency; this has been put to you numerous times, yet you default to your stupid talking points. (Which I'm sure you'll do again.)

If you cannot make sense of it, why do you keep quoting from it to make your silly points? (You'll never in a million years answer that question - like you'll never in a million years offer a peer-reviewed forensic-DNA-expert who agrees with Stefanoni!!!)

Once again, read Section 6.2 of Marasca's report and tell us why it is wrong. Quote from it.

Better still, read Luca Cheli's assessment of it. Read Cheli rather than quote from TMOMK fake-wiki which gets the most basic of facts wrong. (Who was it that got out of Amy Frost what Raffaele said? Do you know what hearsay is, Vixen?)
 
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It's Giuliano Mignini who is questioning Amy and he asks twice by rephrasing the question!!

1) Before we go on, one more question. So it was Raffaele who told you this?
1) Yes.
2) So Raffaele told you that Amanda had seen the blood and therefore had not taken a shower.
2) Yes.

So the GRAUNIAD got it wrong, TMOMK got it wrong. That's why you should rely on primary sources.

I don't think you seriously believe what you wrote in the last paragraph.


Thanks for spotting the error. I expect the original writer summarised from the inaccurate GRUANIAD, which also reports incorrectly the kids rang the police when they found Mez' door locked.

It should be corrected soon.
 
Stacyhs did better than you in posting pictures. One picture you posted proved the exact opposite of what you said it showed. Then you spent about 50 of your 5,000 posts trying to claim that the picture you posted didn't show what it showed.

That one was a laugher!

And don't forget the mesmerizing "police" photo of the "outline of the phone in blood on the floor" provided by some unidentified FreeRG poster. The photo that was never mentioned in court at all nor showed any such outline except in an overactive imagination.
 
Your claim someone who dyes their true hair colour will never leave hair strands of their original behind, is fallacious, because many hair dyes, especially home dyes, do not cover hair 100%.

Take grey hair. No amount of dying will cover this type of hair 100% in some cases.

Oh, my. Slow learner. When will you learn falsely claiming someone said something fails to work when what was actually said is there for all to read? Once again, I never said any such thing. Yet another attempt on your part to dig yourself out of a self-inflicted hole.

Dye does not cover hair 100%, but it does cover the majority of it, or people wouldn't use it, would they? Are you now claiming that all those 7 hairs were only ones that failed to take any of the dye? Dyed hair is obvious to someone trained to look for it, even if only partially dyed.

Umm...Amanda didn't have grey hair at 20 years old, so your point is irrelevant. By the way, I dye my hair blonde and I do have


Do you still want to stand by your belief that those hairs belonged to Amanda? Or, do you want to be a mature adult and admit that they were never presented as evidence because they were not dyed, like Amanda's hair was, proving they were not hers?
 
I don't think I've ever been brow-beaten so much for actually quoting a source!

The best way to muddle-up the Marasca-Bruno report is not to read it. The second best way to do that is to cherry pick points from it and declare those points to be unblemished and absolute truth.........

And then read the context within the report and say that the thing cannot be made sense of. You've managed both!!!!

Vixen - you simply cannot have it both ways.

StacyHS is absolutely correct - the Marasca/Bruno report had to skate within the lines of established judicial truth. But Mike1711 is also absolutely right - they don't necessarily agree with those judicial truths, but they are bound by them.

Once again, you seem to have a reading deficiency; this has been put to you numerous times, yet you default to your stupid talking points. (Which I'm sure you'll do again.)

If you cannot make sense of it, why do you keep quoting from it to make your silly points? (You'll never in a million years answer that question - like you'll never in a million years offer a peer-reviewed forensic-DNA-expert who agrees with Stefanoni!!!)

Once again, read Section 6.2 of Marasca's report and tell us why it is wrong. Quote from it.

Better still, read Luca Cheli's assessment of it. Read Cheli rather than quote from TMOMK fake-wiki which gets the most basic of facts wrong. (Who was it that got out of Amy Frost what Raffaele said? Do you know what hearsay is, Vixen?)

Yes, it would be hearsay. It's a pity Raff declined to put himself forward for cross-examination so he could explain himself.

Of course courts are bound by the decisions of other higher courts. However, decisions of lower courts can be remitted back to be properly considered.

Marasca simply makes the same mistakes as Hellmann. Chieffi, in its report expunging Hellmann Zanettit (and remitting back to the second instance appeal court (this time, to Nencini, Hellmann having been pensioned off) writes re the DNA part of the appeal:

The Hellmann Court of Appeal granted the defence motion and ordered a new genetic
expert report, even though the one ordered during the investigative phase had been
conducted in accordance with Article 360 of the Criminal Procedure Code and in
compliance with the rights of the defence. [The] expert report [was] requested with
reference to the traces found on the knife, which led to the identification of the DNA, even
though the quantity of the trace was lower than what is considered to be sufficient to
obtain a reliable result, and with reference to the DNA found on the bra clasp, considered
the possibility of contamination of the exhibit and of the crime scene, the bra clasp having
been collected and catalogued only after the second inspection by the forensic police, more
than forty days after the murder. The Hellmann Court of Appeal justified its decision to
allow this new assessment by the fact that “the identification of the DNA on the two exhibits
and its [11] attribution to the defendants was particularly complex because of the objective
difficulty, by persons not having scientific knowledge, to formulate assessments and opinions on
particularly technical matters without the assistance of a court‐appointed expert”.

You note this appeal is being dealt with as appealed by the prosecution into Hellmann's reasoning. (Or rather lack thereof.)

Since there was no evidence of compliance with the precautions recommended by the
scientific community to protect against the risk of contamination, according to the Court it
was not necessary to prove the specific source of contamination. Therefore, [the Court]
agreed with the position of the [12] new panel of experts, according to whom the third
trace they themselves had identified, being deemed insufficient to permit two
amplifications, was not subjected to analysis, in order to avoid the same mistake that the
Scientific Police made. The instruments mentioned by Professor Novelli, a consultant for

the civil parties, who claimed they were capable of producing results even with very low
amounts of available [DNA], were considered to be too innovative and therefore not yet
adequately tested.
The Hellmann Court of Appeal judges considered that, since granules of starch had been
detected, that the knife in question had not been washed.

Chieffi overturning Hellmann turned to the Time of Death:

On the time of death, the Hellmann Court of Appeal maintained that the broad time frame
the First Instance judges had established should be reduced, since the scream heard by the
witness Mrs Capezzali was not linked to an objective fact (the same witness had said she
had gone to sleep at around 9‐9:30 PM and gotten up around two hours later to go to the
bathroom with, however, a good deal of approximation) and the circumstances reported
by the witness were extremely ambiguous. [The Hellmann Court of Appeal] also
expressed its reservations with respect to the witness [Antonella] Monacchia, given that
she only came forward to testify a year after the fact, not voluntarily but at the behest of
the usual budding journalist, and due to the imprecision regarding the time of the scream,
indicated as “around 11 PM”. The Hellmann Court of Appeal based [its reasoning] on the
fact that Guede, in a chat with a friend, had said he was in the Via della Pergola house at
around 9‐9:30 PM and on the connection registered on the victim’s cell phone at 10:13 PM,
which lasted nine seconds and did not necessarily require any human interaction, whereas
the last interaction occurred at 9:58 PM after an attempt at 8:56 PM to call her family that
received no response. The Hellmann Court of Appeal reasoned that the young woman
was not able to call to her family again due to an unexpected event and thus placed the
time of death before 10:13 PM, which further underscored the unreliability of Curatolo’s
testimony.

The Knox appeal was against the calunnia conviction and the prosecution the incorrect legal procedure of assessing evidence.


2.1.1* ‐*Violation of procedural law, and in particular of Article 192 paragraph 2 Criminal
Procedure Code. [The Prosecutor General argues as follows:] The Hellmann Court of
Appeal did not assess the pieces of circumstantial evidence in a comprehensive fashion; it
did not evaluate them in a global and unified dimension, but managed to fragment them
by evaluating each one in isolation, in an erroneous legal‐logical analysis, with the goal of
criticizing their individual qualitative significance, whereas if the Hellmann Court of
appeal had followed the interpretative rule of this Court of legitimacy, each piece of
circumstantial evidence would have been integrated with the others, determining an
unequivocal clarification of each of the established facts, so as to reach the logical proof of
the responsibility of the accused.

2.1.2*‐*Violation of Article 238 Criminal Procedure Code:...[...]...which led the second instance court to
not concern itself with the contents of the definitive judgment, even when their
observations on the questionability of the first instance decision patently contradicted the
received decision, rendering them untenable. On this point, [the Prosecutor General] also
criticizes the second instance court for a lack of reasoning.

2.1.3* ‐*Non‐observance of Article 237 Criminal Procedure Code: [The Prosecutor General
notes that] the evaluation of the statement written by Ms Knox was totally ignored, even
though this very Court of legitimacy had held it to be usable, as per decision 990/2008 on
appeal from the decision of the Court of Review,5 it being a document [19] originating
from the accused, written by her for self‐protection.

2.1.4* ‐* Lack of reasoning concerning the order of 18 December 2010 by which the new
testing by a panel of experts was arranged, and lack of logic in the reasoning on this point.
The decision to renew expert testing during the appeal has a totally exceptional character
which requires that the presumption of the completeness of the factual investigation at


first instance be overcome. [According to the Prosecutor General], the Hellmann Court of Appeal based its decision on the presumption of the particular complexity of the (genetic) subject‐matter, which suggested that an expert report be ordered, without identifying any gaps in the genetic findings made at first instance, or any subjects that needed to be developed further, or any aspects deserving of further analysis. But it is immediately obvious that, in fact, the Hellmann Court of Appeal appointed an expert panel in order to delegate to others the evaluation of the evidence acquired at first trial, contrary to theprohibition of delegating this evaluation to scientific knowledge; [in doing so] they confused the principle of the judge’s free conviction [belief], which forms the basis of the belief of the First Instance court (which dismissed the analogous request [for an expert review] as per Article 507 Criminal Procedure Code), with a presumption on the part of that court of the power to formulate hypotheses of a purely scientific nature. All the more so given that the second instance court completely ignored the fact that the original tests were made in accordance with the provisions of Article 360 Criminal Procedure Code, without any criticisms having been lodged during the various phases of the operations, and without the suspects or their legal representation having requested a pre‐trial hearing [regarding testing procedures].

[According to the Prosecutor General,] no argument was
put forth by the Hellman Court of Appeal to sustain the absolute necessity of the test, even
though the report by Dr Stefanoni, head of the biological section of the Scientific Police,
formed part of the case file and was fully usable for the purposes of the decision.
According to the ex post facto reasoning reported in the statement of reasons, the Court had
a priori refused to examine the findings of the Scientific Police which, according to the
Hellmann Court of Appeal, did not render it “less ignorant” due to the fact that they had
been carried out in the investigation phase, thereby patently confusing evaluation of
evidence with actual scientific knowledge.

2.1.5 – [The Prosecutor General asserts] inconsistency and manifest lack of logic in the
reasoning, the failure to obtain a decisive piece of evidence, in reference to the order of 7
September 2011 rejecting the request for a new test.

2.1.6*‐*Violation of Articles 190, 238 para 5, and 495 Criminal Procedure Code, with respect
to the order rejecting the Prosecution’s request for a [new] hearing of Luciano Aviello.

2.1.9 – [The Prosecutor General also argues] deficiency and manifest lack of logic in the
reasoning as to the time of death, unreasonably fixed by the Hellmann Court of Appeal at
10.15 PM, a time earlier than the moment in which a harrowing scream was heard by
witnesses, on the basis of information offered by Guede to a friend in a message sent to
him, where he admitted to being in via della Pergola around 9.00/9.30 PM. [According to
the Prosecutor General], no logical explanation was given for the belief that Rudy had lied
about his participation in the crime but not about the hour of his presence in via della
Pergola, seeing that in order to corroborate his claim of innocence, Guede would have had
to indicate that the time of his arrival at via della Pergola was earlier, where he had left
traces definitely attributable to him in the bathroom of the house. The finding [by the
Hellmann Court of Appeal] that the two telephone contacts recorded on the victim’s
phone at 9.58 PM and at 10.13 PM occurred at the moment of the attack has no foundation,
[according to the Prosecutor General], since [to justify it] the Hellmann Court had to
hypothesize that the first contact was a failed attempt to switch off the mobile, which was
inexplicably not immediately followed by another.

2.1.10*‐*Lack of reasoning, inconsistency and lack of logic of the reasoning concerning the
genetic test. [According to the Prosecutor General], the Hellmann Court assumed as
axiomatic mere opinions of experts, devoid of scientific value, even when they did not
concern the actual interpretation of a scientific phenomenon, but instead a circumstance
that could only have an effect on that interpretation if properly demonstrated: this is the
case, [asserts the Prosecutor General], for the phenomenon of contamination of evidence
that the experts declared possible while carefully avoiding pointing to any justifying
reasons, although this contamination formed the basis of their conclusion of absolute non‐
usability of the genetic profiles.

Professor Novelli had warned that it is not enough to
say that a result derives from contamination, but one must demonstrate it and show its
origin. The error in reasoning is obvious, [according to the Prosecutor General], in that the
burden of proof falls on the one who asserts, not on the one who denies: if the refutation of
scientific evidence entails a circumstance of fact which is the contamination of a piece of
evidence, then that circumstance must be specifically proved. Nothing was said in the judgment about how the DNA found on the blade of the knife and Sollecito’s DNA on the clasp of the bra worn by Meredith could have been the result of contamination, considering how far apart in time the two tests were carried out [from other tests]. In addition, the negative controls by the biological geneticist from the Scientific Police were represented as not having been done, but turned out in fact to have been done. Nor could the experts indicate any specific source of contamination, limiting themselves instead to asserting that anything is possible

2.1.11* ‐*Lack of reasoning, inconsistency and lack of logic concerning the analysis of the
prints and other traces: including the print made in [24] blood by a bare foot on the bath
mat, as well as those enhanced with luminol on the floor of the hallway attributed to the
bare feet of the two accused. [According to the Prosecutor General], the Hellmann Court of
Appeal completely misrepresented the significance of the conclusions of the expert,
Engineer Rinaldi, director of the Prints Section of the Polizia di Stato, showing that it did
not properly understand that the limits of the footprint analysis were the same for all of
the footprints, given the absence of the minute details that characterize a person’s
fingertips and toes and the soles of their feet.

2.1.12* ‐* Disregarding evidence and lack of logic in the reasoning, and violation of
procedural rules, concerning the presence of the accused at the scene of the crime. [The
Prosecutor General argues that] Ms Knox had reported to her friends, who testified on
these points, that she was the one who found the body, which was in the wardrobe, that
the victim was covered by a quilt, that a foot was sticking out, that they had cut her throat
and that there was [25] blood everywhere, circumstances of which she had not been
apprised at the time the victim’s door was broken down, since the two accused were
indisputably not present then, so that this exact reality as represented cannot but be
considered the fruit of a direct awareness of the facts, preceding the time of the breaking
down of the door, something which can only be reconciled with the presence of the
accused at the time of the deed.

...Hellmann Court of Appeal, with no justification, ruled out the relevance of the post
delictum behaviour, asserting that reactions can be many and varied, whereas in fact this
matter did not concern emotional reactions, but awareness of facts expressed with
alarming precision. Nor could it be ignored, [argues the Prosecutor General,] that at
12.47.23 PM on 2 November 2007, Ms Knox telephoned her mother in America where it
was three in the morning6 (before Sollecito phoned his sister at 12.50 and then 112), and
that this phone call occurred in the middle of the night in America, before Ms Kercher’s
body had been discovered; thus it must be noted, [according to the Prosecutor General,]
that the young woman phoned her mother to tell her about the troubled state she was in
before the discovery of the body. On this point, [concludes the Prosecutor General,] which
constitutes an aspect of circumstantial evidence examined by the First Instance Court, the
second instance court made no evaluation whatsoever.

Internal consistencies leaving it wide open for Rudy to apply for a review:

2.1.15* ‐*Lack of reasoning and manifest illogicality of the finding of non‐existence of the
staging of a crime: [the Prosecutor General argues that] the acquittal of the two defendants
of the offence of staging, according to the formula “the fact did not occur”, did not follow
from a negative assessment of their penal responsibility, but was instead the consequence
of the paradoxical recognition of the responsibility of Guede, who was not charged in the
present trial, for having committed the attempted burglary. However, Guede was
convicted definitively with the decision received pursuant to Article 238bis Criminal
Procedure Code for, among other things, the crime of aggravated murder, but not for
staging a crime; this staging was admitted [as fact] in the judgment [of Guede], but
deemed attributable to the co‐offenders in the crime.

The Chieffi verdict is:

The appeals of the Prosecutor General of the Appeal Court of Perugia and those of the
Civil Parties are well‐founded and must be sustained, as was requested by the
Prosecutor General in the hearing.

Among no less than 17 scathingly critical reasons for expunging Hellmann includes:

10*‐*The fixing of new parameters on the time of death produced in the second instance
trial
The severe criticism made by the Prosecutor General in his appeal, in terms of manifest
illogicality of the reasoning regarding the time of death of the unfortunate Meredith is also
worthy of attention.

But the most obvious strain in the interpretation is certainly recognisable in the
undervaluing of the declarations of no less than three witnesses, in harmony with one
another and absolutely independent.



It is in fact a principle of living law
that the judge of merit is entitled to evaluate the evidence of the trial in order to decide
whether a request for an expert report is warranted; as long as it is properly justified, this
decision cannot be censured on the grounds of legitimacy (Section VI, 21.9.2012, n.456).


Therefore, [65] when the Prosecutor General and the Counsel for the Civil Parties submitted a request to complete the analysis on the basis of the scientific explanation provided by Prof. Novelli, a geneticist of undisputed repute recognized by the [appeal] court itself (page 79 statement of reasons), regarding the availability of instruments capable of reliably analysing quantities even smaller than ten picograms in diagnostic fields (such as embryology) in which the need for certainty is no less important than in the courts, the Hellmann Court of Appeal refused on the assumption that the methods mentioned by Prof. Novelli were “in an experimental phase” (page 84), thereby freely interpreting and misrepresenting the testimony of the professor, who on the contrary mentioned the use of such techniques in diagnostic domains in which the certainty of the result is essential.
Novelli and Torricelli ignored.

the court
reiterated the considerations expressed in the expert report, which in truth were the
subject of severe disagreement by professors Novelli and Torricelli, consultants to the
Prosecutor General and the Civil Parties, whose authority was completely ignored. Prof.
Novelli did agree with the fact that there are protocols and recommendations, but added
that above all the technician’s competence and common sense must come into play,
(hearing 6.9.2011, page 59 of transcript), otherwise every DNA analysis from 1986
onwards could be called into question. Not only that, but he added that taking Sollecito’s
alleles from trace 165B and making a statistical investigation, one finds a probability of one
in 3 billion, meaning that there is one person in every 3 billion compatible with that
profile. Also Prof. Torricelli, who participated as a reviewer in the preparation of the
guidelines invoked by the experts, clarified that it is permissible to depart from protocol
out of necessity on a case‐by‐case basis. She also gave precise arguments underlining the
fact that on the bra clasp (trace 165B) the important factor was the Y haplotype, which was
very clear in all its 17 loci; so much so that inserting these 17 loci into the database yielded
no hits other than Sollecito, whereas if only 11 loci were inserted, they found 31 people
with the same haplotype. These observations, made by experts with the same amount of
expertise as the ones that wrote the expert report, were not even quoted in the [appeal]
statement of reasons, let alone dealt with, in view of their undisputable evidentiary
importance, a way of operating [modus operandi] that demonstrates an unacceptable
incompleteness in the evaluation, which affects the correct application of the rules for
interpreting evidence


Raff's DNA:

Laboratory contamination was also excluded by these experts. Prof. Novelli said that the
origin or vehicle of any contamination must be demonstrated: he added that at the
Scientific Police laboratory he had seen the 255 samples [68] extracted, had analysed all the
profiles, and had not found any evidence of contamination; he ruled out in an absolutely
convincing manner that a contamination agent could be present intermittently, or that
DNA could remain suspended, and later fall down in a specific place. Dr Stefanoni (the
technical consultant who wrote the report as per article 360 CCP), who was also heard in
the appeal trial, reiterated that there was no evidence of any contamination: the analyses
on the knife had been carried out a full 6 days after the last [previously tested] DNA trace
of the victim; the investigations had been at a stand‐still for 6 days, as proven in the SAL
records (at first wrongly indicated as unavailable), a lapse of time that even the expert
Vecchiotti deemed sufficient to avoid lab contamination. In particular, regarding Sollecito,
the saliva swab was extracted and tested on 6 November 2007, sample 165B was extracted
on 29 December 2007; another profile related to Sollecito’s shoe was on 17 December 2007.
From 17 December 2007 to 29 December, there were 12 days in which no trace from
Sollecito was analysed. Sollecito’s DNA was never found alone [at the crime scene], as the
only trace of his that was collected and analysed was the one on the cigarette stub found in
the ashtray of the kitchen in Knox’s flat, mixed with Knox’s DNA


CONCLUSION

In conclusion, the challenged judgment must be annulled due to the numerous
deficiencies, contradictions and manifest lack of logic indicated above. Using the broadest
faculty of evaluation, the remanded judge will have to remedy the flaws in argumentation
by conducting a uniform and global analysis of the evidence, through which it will have to
be ascertained whether the relative ambiguity of each piece of evidence can be resolved, as
each piece of evidence sums up and integrates with the others in the overall assessment.
The outcome of such an organic evaluation will be decisive, not only to demonstrate the
presence of the two defendants at the crime scene, but also possibly to clarify the
subjective role of the people who committed this murder with Guede, against a range of
possible scenarios, going from an original plan to kill to a change in the plan which was
initially aimed only at involving the young English girl in a sexual game against her will
to an act with the sole intention of forcing her into a wild group erotic game which
violently took another course, getting out of control.


Source: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Supreme_Court_of_Cassation_of_Italy_Sentencing_Report


In effect, much of Marasca's report contradicts Chieffi's findings, which, with the exception of ordering the unanalysed knife sample to be tested and various witnesses reheard, are res judicata,, which the Fifth Chamber had no power or jurisdiction to overturn.
 
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I didn't say 'dirty' just not freshly washed and coiffured that morning.

If this is the 'after' photo, where's the 'before'?

ETA: Amy Frost testified that hours after the body was discovered Amanda Knox told her that she never took a shower, that she had noticed the blood and this stopped her from showering. http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Massei_Trial#Amy_Frost

You claimed it wasn't wet implying she hadn't showered. I pointed out that it had been 2 hours between the time she'd showered and the police arrived. Hair that length dries completely in that amount of time. However, Amanda wrote she was "stashing (the dryer) back against the wall" which implies she had finished drying her hair when she noticed the feces in the toilet.

Why would it have been "coiffed" at all? Blow drying hair doesn't mean it was styled, only dried. Amanda didn't even bother to wear makeup. What makes you think she spent time styling he hair? Here's a another picture showing her dyed blonde hair. Does it look "coiffed" to you or merely clean and left unstyled?

And no, Amanda never told Amy Frost that at all. This has already been explained to you in a previous post. Amy claims Raffaele said that. No one else confirmed her claim.
 
Oh, my. Slow learner. When will you learn falsely claiming someone said something fails to work when what was actually said is there for all to read? Once again, I never said any such thing. Yet another attempt on your part to dig yourself out of a self-inflicted hole.

Dye does not cover hair 100%, but it does cover the majority of it, or people wouldn't use it, would they? Are you now claiming that all those 7 hairs were only ones that failed to take any of the dye? Dyed hair is obvious to someone trained to look for it, even if only partially dyed.

Umm...Amanda didn't have grey hair at 20 years old, so your point is irrelevant. By the way, I dye my hair blonde and I do have


Do you still want to stand by your belief that those hairs belonged to Amanda? Or, do you want to be a mature adult and admit that they were never presented as evidence because they were not dyed, like Amanda's hair was, proving they were not hers?

How does this fit in with your cod theory 'Rudy did it all by himself'?

Somebody left strands of long fair hair behind. The forensics are silent as to whether they were tested for hair colourants.
 
Vixen there wasn't one ear witness around 11...there were at least four. They were all right out in front of the cottage and heard nothing and saw nothing.

Chieffi did not study the case, and did not know the case. That's why his horrendous ruling was rectified by Marasca. I hope you can one day understand.
 
You claimed it wasn't wet implying she hadn't showered. I pointed out that it had been 2 hours between the time she'd showered and the police arrived. Hair that length dries completely in that amount of time. However, Amanda wrote she was "stashing (the dryer) back against the wall" which implies she had finished drying her hair when she noticed the feces in the toilet.

Why would it have been "coiffed" at all? Blow drying hair doesn't mean it was styled, only dried. Amanda didn't even bother to wear makeup. What makes you think she spent time styling he hair? Here's a another picture showing her dyed blonde hair. Does it look "coiffed" to you or merely clean and left unstyled?

And no, Amanda never told Amy Frost that at all. This has already been explained to you in a previous post. Amy claims Raffaele said that. No one else confirmed her claim.[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_7166957c09da4b6db7.jpg[/qimg]


You really don't get that the issue of the shower is (a) did it happen on the morning of 2 Nov - remember, on a freezing cold November morning with no heating and the front door flapping open - and a thin sports jacket, or was it, (b) to explain away her pottering about at the cottage for almost two hours including changing into a white skirt, especially given she had an extensive shower with Raf scrubbing her all over the afternoon before.

It has nothing at all to do with sex, as you claim. There was a particularly grisly murder that same night. The killer/s would have been splattered with blood.

Your diversions into the habits of the American housewife are ridiculous as Amanda was not known for good hygiene habits, with Mez having the embarrassing task of having to 'talk' to her about it.
 
You really don't get that the issue of the shower is (a) did it happen on the morning of 2 Nov - remember, on a freezing cold November morning with no heating and the front door flapping open - and a thin sports jacket, or was it, (b) to explain away her pottering about at the cottage for almost two hours including changing into a white skirt, especially given she had an extensive shower with Raf scrubbing her all over the afternoon before.

It has nothing at all to do with sex, as you claim. There was a particularly grisly murder that same night. The killer/s would have been splattered with blood.

Your diversions into the habits of the American housewife are ridiculous as Amanda was not known for good hygiene habits, with Mez having the embarrassing task of having to 'talk' to her about it.

The only person on planet earth that knew Amanda Knox was at the cottage that morning before noon is Amanda Knox. She didn't need to make up the story about the shower if she didn't want to. In fact, it seems like a stupid thing to make up.
 
I don't think I've ever been brow-beaten so much for actually quoting a source!

The best way to muddle-up the Marasca-Bruno report is not to read it. The second best way to do that is to cherry pick points from it and declare those points to be unblemished and absolute truth.........

And then read the context within the report and say that the thing cannot be made sense of. You've managed both!!!!

Vixen - you simply cannot have it both ways.

StacyHS is absolutely correct - the Marasca/Bruno report had to skate within the lines of established judicial truth. But Mike1711 is also absolutely right - they don't necessarily agree with those judicial truths, but they are bound by them.

Once again, you seem to have a reading deficiency; this has been put to you numerous times, yet you default to your stupid talking points. (Which I'm sure you'll do again.)

If you cannot make sense of it, why do you keep quoting from it to make your silly points? (You'll never in a million years answer that question - like you'll never in a million years offer a peer-reviewed forensic-DNA-expert who agrees with Stefanoni!!!)

Once again, read Section 6.2 of Marasca's report and tell us why it is wrong. Quote from it.

Better still, read Luca Cheli's assessment of it. Read Cheli rather than quote from TMOMK fake-wiki which gets the most basic of facts wrong. (Who was it that got out of Amy Frost what Raffaele said? Do you know what hearsay is, Vixen?)

Now to compare and contrast with Marasca's report.

One of the reasons for annulment was:

The sixth reason claims lack of rationale, because there was no consideration of the violation of
the international recommendations on the sampling and examination of traces of small entity and
the interpretation of the results. Also claimed is misrepresentation of the evidence and manifest
illogicality of reasoning on the results of the genetic examinations carried out on the kitchen
knife and also violation of the proof evaluation standards, according to the article 192 of the code
of procedure.

The issue of, "the violation of the international recommendations" is introduced as a completely new topic by it and it is erroneous and misleading to claim this. There was no fact found that this was the case at all.

Marasca states in Section 6.1

6.1 Firstly, the judges’ statement is erroneous that the motive for homicide does not have to be
determined with precision

Clearly, that is nonsense. Many psychopathic murders are entirely motiveless, or for trivial motive (Brian Lee Draper (born in 1990) and Torey Michael Adamcik (born June 14, 1990) - 'Scream' murder; Erin Caffey, 16, had sex with her boyfriend while her mum and little brothers were lying dead in her home;Baldwin, Echols, and Misskelley
At the time of their arrests, Jessie Misskelley, Jr. was 17 years old, Jason Baldwin was 16 years old, and Damien Echols was 18 years old, convicted of killing and sexually assaulting three eight-year old boys; 16-year old Brenda Spencer: "I don't like Mondays", etc ). Intellectually dishonesty by Marasca when Massei already ruled 'futile motive'.

Marasca states, "contingent on verification of the reliability coefficient of the evidences, by way of clarity,
precision and concordance, with analytic and resulting appreciation of these, individually
considered and subsequently placed in a global and unitary perspective..."

"...This, as will be stated below, cannot be confirmed in this case, because of an evidential
compendium which is equivocal and intrinsically contradictory.
Specifically, none of the possible motives in the scenarios of the appealed sentence have been
firmed up in this case.
The sexual motivation attributed to Guede during the separate procedure against him is not
wholesale extensible to the supposed other attackers; for as has been stated before the hypothesis
of a group erotic game has not been demonstrated; it is not possible to presume for each appellant
a shared or combined motive assuming a sharing in the attack. Such an extension would have to
postulate the existence of trusting interpersonal relationships between the appellants, which
within the particular and sudden character of the criminal pact would lend verisimilitude to such
a move.
Now, though the sentimental relationship between Sollecito and Knox was fact, and though the
girl had occasion to know Guede to some extent, there is no proof that Sollecito would have
known or hung out with the Ivorian."

Incredibly poor reasoning, as Marasca knew Rudy asked to be tried separately in the (correct) belief the other two defendants would make a hostile attempt to pin it all on him. Rudy had met Amanda on social occasions. There is no requirement for them all to know each other and in addition, be great friends, in order to commit a crime. The common factor, was drugs, and Amanda, who almost certainly was the one who let Rudy in / invited him around.

Marasca states in Section 6.2

Another error of judgment resides in the supposed irrelevance of the verification of the exact
hour of Kercher’s death, considering sufficient the approximation offered by the examinations,
even if assumed as correct during the trial pohase.
With regards to this, Sollecito’s defense has reasons to appeal, since they signaled the necessity
of a concrete verification specifically in the evidential proceedings, every consequential
implication. Furthermore, the exact determination of the time of Kercher’s death is an
inescapable factual prerequisite for the verification of the alibi offered by the defendant in course
of the investigation aiming to verify the possibility of his claimed presence in the house at via
della Pergola at the time of the homicide. And for this reason an expert verification was
requested.
So, specifically on this point, it is fair to note a despicable carelessness during the preliminary
investigation phase.

Chieffi has already dealt with this issue and dismissed it.

Marasca then states re Time of Death in relation to the phones:

The appellant’s defense has offered, in this regard, a more reliable analysis, backed up by
incontrovertible facts.
From the examination of the telephonic traffic has emerged that, after the departure from her
English friend’s house at 9 PM, the young woman had, in vain, tried to call her parents in
England, like she used to do every day, while a last contact was registered at 10:13 PM, so that
the temporal range has been further reduced to approximately 9:30/10:13 PM.

See the earlier Chieffi quotes wherein it was specifically dismissed that TOD was necessarily 10:13 and upholding Massei and Nencini.

So you see, Marasca not only rides roughshod over the First Chamber Supreme Court, it reverts back to the expunged Hellmann.
 
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The only person on planet earth that knew Amanda Knox was at the cottage that morning before noon is Amanda Knox. She didn't need to make up the story about the shower if she didn't want to. In fact, it seems like a stupid thing to make up.

As Amanda claims in her email to all that she was banging and shouting at Mez' door and she was alarmed by a glob of blood on the bathmat (which is obvious to anybody a footprint), it's all rather gruesome she hung around for a couple of hours, or so she claims.

Police are sceptical about her whole story.
 
So you see, Marasca not only rides roughshod over the First Chamber Supreme Court, it reverts back to the expunged Hellmann.

He has little choice, with Chieffi's horrendous legal reasoning. Chieffi did not study the case. He simply never studied it. It could not be clearer.

The Chieffi court did. not. study. the. case.
 
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