Erdogan's purge in Turkey

Sideroxylon said:
Some elements were there, like the intolerance of criticism but that is pervasive in Turkish culture. The Kemalists had laws that would see you locked up for insulting Ataturk or Turkishness.
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Ataturk was no bleeding-heart liberal, that's a fact.

I have no interest in making a defence of the AKP and I have said all I want to against the claim that any conservative government was doomed to fail.
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It's religion, rather than conservatism, that seems to be the problem: in this context they may be synonymous. Secular Turkey has been very conservative for most of its history.

The only point I care for above is the important context for the words in Gullen's sermon.
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They could have come straight from Lenin, I agree. As has been mentioned before, they could have come from Erdogan just as well.

Religious parties seem unable to recognise constitutional limits to power. Presumably because they answer to a higher authority - indeed the highest there is. :covereyes
 
Klimax said:
Agreed. There are always two options or more. They choose to protect their corrupted members. They could have always eliminate and use it as proof how anti-corruption they are. ("Look, we don't tolerate any corruption, not even inside our ranks!")
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If they truly were anti-corruption, this wouldn't even be up to debate. Their knee-jerk reaction would be to be even less tolerant of corruption within their own ranks.
In other words, the AKP never was anti-corruption to begin with, their predecessors were corrupt and they fixed that, at the price of their own corruption. For a time this did mean a cleaner government, simply because it took time for the AKP to grow as corrupt as their predecessors were.

McHrozni
 
Sideroxylon said:
Some elements were there, like the intolerance of criticism but that is pervasive in Turkish culture. The Kemalists had laws that would see you locked up for insulting Ataturk or Turkishness.
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AKP laws see you locked up for insulting Edrogan. The difference between the two is that Ataturk is long dead, whereas Edrogan is not just alive, but the current president of the country and the party that has a clear majority of seats in the parliament.

The first one is tolerable and compatible with democracy, the second one is not.

I have no interest in making a defence of the AKP and I have said all I want to against the claim that any conservative government was doomed to fail. The only point I care for above is the important context for the words in Gullen's sermon.
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I'm not sure anyone made that claim in the first place. A government headed by AKP was doomed to fail, but not because they were conservatives, but because they were headed by two religious people, at least one of whom is scum.

McHrozni
 
CapelDodger said:
Religious parties seem unable to recognise constitutional limits to power. Presumably because they answer to a higher authority - indeed the highest there is. :covereyes
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That's true for some religious parties, particularly those following the religions of Marxism (and it's offshoots) or Islam. The rest seem to work well enough (e.g. German CDU) for the most part, and don't usually usurp unconstitutional state power.

McHrozni
 
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Perhaps we need a "Turkey : What Now?" thread, since this isn't about the coup, but this

Turkey will take a more active role in addressing the conflict in Syria in the next six months to prevent the war-torn country being divided along ethnic lines, the prime minister, Binali Yildirim, has said.

Yildirim also said that while the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, could have a role in the interim leadership, he must play no part in its future.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/20/turkey-announces-more-active-role-in-syria-conflict

is more evidence of a pivot from the West towards the Middle East (and, I dare say, Central Asia).

There's school of thought which holds that the West's recent irruption into the Middle East has played itself out, just as the Crusader irruption did, and I can see that theory appealing to Erdogan. I find it pretty persuasive myself.
 
McHrozni said:
That's true for some religious parties, particularly those following the religions of Marxism (and it's offshoots) or Islam. The rest seem to work well enough (e.g. German CDU) for the most part, and don't usually usurp unconstitutional state power.
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Germany does have unusually robust constitutional defences, for obvious reasons, but that aside I wouldn't call the CDU a religious party. The Church of England is known as the Tory Party at prayer, but I wouldn't call them religious either. Nor even the US Republican Party. For these, "Christian values" stands for "middle class values".

The "Chrstian" in CDU is very different from the "Muslim" in Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, for instance, and the AKP has a common history with them.
 
CapelDodger said:
Germany does have unusually robust constitutional defences, for obvious reasons, but that aside I wouldn't call the CDU a religious party. The Church of England is known as the Tory Party at prayer, but I wouldn't call them religious either. Nor even the US Republican Party. For these, "Christian values" stands for "middle class values".

The "Chrstian" in CDU is very different from the "Muslim" in Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, for instance, and the AKP has a common history with them.
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My point exactly. It's not religious parties that are the problem, it's the Islamic parties. Let's call a spade a spade.

McHrozni
 
Sideroxylon said:
And an Islamophobe an Islamophobe.
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Sure. However since a phobia is defined as an irrational fear or whatever comes before it, and since we're talking about a purge conducted by an Islamic cleric-president, a point that out of all religious parties worldwide, only the Islamic ones unconstitutionally usurp state power, and they do so regularly, is anything but Islamophobic to point it out, at least until you prove beyond reasonable doubt there is no causation behind it.

Good luck with that.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
Sure. However since a phobia is defined as an irrational fear or whatever comes before it, and since we're talking about a purge conducted by an Islamic cleric-president, a point that out of all religious parties worldwide, only the Islamic ones unconstitutionally usurp state power, and they do so regularly, is anything but Islamophobic to point it out, at least until you prove beyond reasonable doubt there is no causation behind it.

Good luck with that.

McHrozni
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Erdogan an Islamic cleric-president. Lol What does it take to post with such airs to authority on subjects you have no idea about?
 
Sideroxylon said:
Erdogan an Islamic cleric-president. Lol What does it take to post with such airs to authority on subjects you have no idea about?
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Knowledge of the subject at hand, for starters. He's a qualified Imam through his secondary schooling. Didn't you know?

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
Knowledge of the subject at hand, for starters. He's a qualified Imam through his secondary schooling. Didn't you know?

McHrozni
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Unlike you, I know what going to an imam hatip school actually means in a real sense. Many civil servants and professionals have been to them. Girls go to them.

Islamic cleric-president hahhahah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/İmam_Hatip_school
 
Sideroxylon said:
Unlike you, I know what going to an imam hatip school actually means in a real sense. Many civil servants and professionals have been to them. Girls go to them.
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And this would be relevant, if we were discussing the sons of the Turkish president. We do not. The schools had many reforms, and the ones you refer to happened some ten years after he graduated. Please try to read the links you post, writing down the obvious is rather tedious. :rolleyes:

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
And this would be relevant, if we were discussing the sons of the Turkish president. We do not. The schools had many reforms, and the ones you refer to happened some ten years after he graduated. Please try to read the links you post, writing down the obvious is rather tedious. :rolleyes:

McHrozni
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Islamic cleric-president.
 
McHrozni said:
Would you prefer president-cleric?

I'd say this implies something worse still. I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to declare himself the new Caliph, and his beef with the ISIS is mainly in the selection of the Caliph.

McHrozni
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Hahhhahaha
 
Sideroxylon said:
Hahhhahaha
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While you're having fun, people die because of this. Only yesterday a suicide bomber - a kid, according to authorities - killed 51 people at a Kurdish wedding, and you think this is a laughing matter?

Sickening.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
While you're having fun, people die because of this. Only yesterday a suicide bomber - a kid, according to authorities - killed 51 people at a Kurdish wedding, and you think this is a laughing matter?

Sickening.

McHrozni
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I think that's another ridiculous response.
 
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McHrozni said:
You're free to think whatever you want. Freedom of thought is one of the huge achievements of the civilized world.

McHrozni
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You might have meant to claim freedom of speech. Even those in durka-durka lands think what they like.
 
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