Question for Trump supporters

cullennz said:
Kind of a personal question.

Just wondering which of his policy you agree with and if comfortable why?
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Mostly it's about immigration for me.

I like his promise to build a wall on the Mexican border. I think it is eminently doable, and I think it will be very effective at reducing illegal border crossings to a trickle. Once that is done, it frees us to legalize the illegal immigrants living among us. It also frees us, if we so choose, to increase the rate of legal immigration, or increase the number of guest worker permits. Illegal immigration is harmful for so many reasons, and yet it is allowed to continue because a significant fraction of both political parties see more downside than upside in curbing it.

I like his still-evolving ideas to curb immigration of people who likely don't share our values. Our immigration policies, by accident and by design, favor people who are low-skilled, uneducated, and culturally backward. I'd like to favor people who are highly skilled, educated, and culturally compatible with our pluralistic society. I think Trump represents the best chance for fundamentally changing our immigration system.

In general, though, I think Trump is crazy enough to do things that no other President has the balls to do. That could turn out badly, or it could turn out really well. I have confidence though that our institutions can protect us from the downside, even as they can't restrain the upside.

Just to give an example, I think that Trump has the highest probability of any Presidential candidate to say "Screw it; we're getting rid of most of the drug laws." That would be a good thing in my opinion. He probably also has the highest probability of any Presidential candidate to say "Screw it; I'm nuking Mexico." That would be a bad thing in my opinion, but I don't think he'll be able to do that.
 
cullennz said:
Only if you aren't prepared to validate his policies
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Most people don't spend their day ready to defend their positions. You phrase your question to get the former reaction, but then people always jump in and turn it into a debate. It is rude.
 
cullennz said:
I am just asking a question. As an outsider I am genuinely interested
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Then you're asking the wrong question. Cognitive dissonance has already been and gone. Trumps policies are terrible. Absolutely no one who knows what they're doing think Trump knows what he's doing. So it's not the policies themselves which garner support.

When asking why any particular person who should know better is supporting Trump, you're basically looking at a combination of the following three factors:

1) Identity politics. The two-party system has a stranglehold on American politics. People see themselves as R or D, conservative or liberal, crunchy or creamy, and reason and vote accordingly, irregardless of the respective candidates. We have members here who've more or less admitted that Trump can lay no turd too smelly for them to polish if doing so keeps the Democrats out of the White House. Each side claims about 40% of the voting public in this category, meaning you could take both candidates out and run Pantsuit vs Toupee, and third parties *still* wouldn't get to join the debate.

2) Protest vote. They think the President is largely a figurehead, and so it's worth supporting Trump to shake things up with policies which are completely beyond the scope of Washington politics. I think they're right about shaking things up, but wrong about not knocking them down.

3) Racism. Good old fashioned hate boners for the guy who is the clear choice of bigots everywhere. Note that although his rhetoric can be better categorized as classist arguments which just happen to have a racial component, I'm assuming that anyone smart enough to walk that over to apologetics of Trump's policies is also smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy in believing that a millionaire who mostly supports tax cuts for himself has the best interests of the working class at heart. Which just leaves the racism.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Then you're asking the wrong question. Cognitive dissonance has already been and gone. Trumps policies are terrible. Absolutely no one who knows what they're doing think Trump knows what he's doing. So it's not the policies themselves which garner support.

When asking why any particular person who should know better is supporting Trump, you're basically looking at a combination of the following three factors:

1) Identity politics. The two-party system has a stranglehold on American politics. People see themselves as R or D, conservative or liberal, crunchy or creamy, and reason and vote accordingly, irregardless of the respective candidates. We have members here who've more or less admitted that Trump can lay no turd too smelly for them to polish if doing so keeps the Democrats out of the White House. Each side claims about 40% of the voting public in this category, meaning you could take both candidates out and run Pantsuit vs Toupee, and third parties *still* wouldn't get to join the debate.

2) Protest vote. They think the President is largely a figurehead, and so it's worth supporting Trump to shake things up with policies which are completely beyond the scope of Washington politics. I think they're right about shaking things up, but wrong about not knocking them down.

3) Racism. Good old fashioned hate boners for the guy who is the clear choice of bigots everywhere. Note that although his rhetoric can be better categorized as classist arguments which just happen to have a racial component, I'm assuming that anyone smart enough to walk that over to apologetics of Trump's policies is also smart enough to recognize the hypocrisy in believing that a millionaire who mostly supports tax cuts for himself has the best interests of the working class at heart. Which just leaves the racism.
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You can have non racist anti multiculturalism.
 
BobTheCoward said:
What policy do you actually object to.
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I dunno. I thought I was pretty clear.

All of them.

From wanting to bang his daughter, to hiring Russian ball lickers to building that asinine wall to his policies regarding refugees and brown people. Economic plans that are designed specifically to target him, his fraudulent business practices, and the fact that he's breathing.

Aside from all that (and more) I support him.
 
Carson is on CNN saying, "you have to look beyond his words." WTF?
He says Trump is just now beginning to address the issues.

These people see what they want to see because Trump's actual policy positions are like putty.


Charter schools? Been tried, still out there, they don't do better overall compared to public schools.

Trickle down? The only time there was faux success with this was when Reagan allowed the national debt to skyrocket, still an unrecognized stimulus.

And he has the same claim as the rest of the billionaires, they are not taking wealth they are growing it, there is a bigger share for everyone. Except that is not true. Production is up, the rich are earning more and the poor and middle class stay the same. IOW, more labor is being extracted from people, aka, taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

The wall? Not the actual problem, and the investment it would take to deport people and keep the border secure is tremendous. The disruption in the economy to deport everyone could put the economy into a tailspin. And mostly this is an empty promise anyway.

Estate taxes? With the first 6 million already exempt and it ignores the fact this is just a tax loophole not to have to pay capital gains tax.

He wants more police. How is that going to fix the over-incarceration of blacks?
 
BobTheCoward said:
You can have non racist anti multiculturalism.
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If you're very careful about how you define "multiculturalism," sure.

Trump is not that careful. I don't think he's even that racist, but he undeniably panders to people who are.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
If you're very careful about how you define "multiculturalism," sure.

Trump is not that careful. I don't think he's even that racist, but he undeniably panders to people who are.
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Do you think Trump supporters who meet someone of a different race but identical cultural values and standards that they would treat them differently?
 
sunmaster14 said:
... Our immigration policies, by accident and by design, favor people who are low-skilled, uneducated, and culturally backward. I'd like to favor people who are highly skilled, educated, and culturally compatible with our pluralistic society. I think Trump represents the best chance for fundamentally changing our immigration system....
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Funny, this neck of the woods is full of computer tech immigrants and very hard working gardeners. They both seem like valuable contributions to the community from where I stand.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Do you think Trump supporters who meet someone of a different race but identical cultural values and standards that they would treat them differently?
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A sizable chunk of them would describe themselves as incorporating race into their cultural values and standards, so it ain't like they's racist, no sir, they's just standin' up fer their culture beliefs, but otherwise, yes, absolutely.

Note that I'm not saying all Trump supporters are racists. I'm saying all racists (of a certain stripe) are Trump supporters. He's got the White Nationalist vote snugly in his back pocket, and as luck would have it, running his campaign.
 
sunmaster14 said:
Mostly it's about immigration for me.

I like his promise to build a wall on the Mexican border. I think it is eminently doable, and I think it will be very effective at reducing illegal border crossings to a trickle. Once that is done, it frees us to legalize the illegal immigrants living among us. It also frees us, if we so choose, to increase the rate of legal immigration, or increase the number of guest worker permits. Illegal immigration is harmful for so many reasons, and yet it is allowed to continue because a significant fraction of both political parties see more downside than upside in curbing it.

I like his still-evolving ideas to curb immigration of people who likely don't share our values. Our immigration policies, by accident and by design, favor people who are low-skilled, uneducated, and culturally backward. I'd like to favor people who are highly skilled, educated, and culturally compatible with our pluralistic society. I think Trump represents the best chance for fundamentally changing our immigration system.

In general, though, I think Trump is crazy enough to do things that no other President has the balls to do. That could turn out badly, or it could turn out really well. I have confidence though that our institutions can protect us from the downside, even as they can't restrain the upside.

Just to give an example, I think that Trump has the highest probability of any Presidential candidate to say "Screw it; we're getting rid of most of the drug laws." That would be a good thing in my opinion. He probably also has the highest probability of any Presidential candidate to say "Screw it; I'm nuking Mexico." That would be a bad thing in my opinion, but I don't think he'll be able to do that.
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Thank you for that. It's an honest post that complies with the OP. I rather discuss in a different thread why I think some of those policies won't get the results you expect.

Let's keep posts like this coming. There's nothing wrong in voting Trump (or Clinton, Johnson, Stein or Castle)
 
aleCcowaN said:
Thank you for that. It's an honest post that complies with the OP. I rather discuss in a different thread why I think some of those policies won't get the results you expect.

Let's keep posts like this coming. There's nothing wrong in voting Trump (or Clinton, Johnson, Stein or Castle)
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Oh yes there is. A vote for Trump is a vote for a most certain humanitarian crisis or three.

1) Allow Putin free reign over the Baltics.
2) Deportation of immigrants from south of the border. Sounds simple but is disgusting in practice.
3) Nukes in the Middle East.

Any or all of these three are ABSOLUTELY on the table in a Trump presidency.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
A sizable chunk of them would describe themselves as incorporating race into their cultural values and standards, so it ain't like they's racist, no sir, they's just standin' up fer their culture beliefs, but otherwise, yes, absolutely.

Note that I'm not saying all Trump supporters are racists. I'm saying all racists (of a certain stripe) are Trump supporters. He's got the White Nationalist vote snugly in his back pocket, and as luck would have it, running his campaign.
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I don't agree. I think if someone of a different race talked like them and acted like them, they would treat them the same.
 
NoahFence said:
Oh yes there is. A vote for Trump is a vote for a most certain humanitarian crisis or three.

1) Allow Putin free reign over the Baltics.
2) Deportation of immigrants from south of the border. Sounds simple but is disgusting in practice.
3) Nukes in the Middle East.

Any or all of these three are ABSOLUTELY on the table in a Trump presidency.
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And now you're clearly trying to derail this thread ...
 
NoahFence said:
Oh yes there is. A vote for Trump is a vote for a most certain humanitarian crisis or three.

1) Allow Putin free reign over the Baltics.
2) Deportation of immigrants from south of the border. Sounds simple but is disgusting in practice.
3) Nukes in the Middle East.

Any or all of these three are ABSOLUTELY on the table in a Trump presidency.
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The thread is not meant to be slag of Trump for no reason.

If you don't understand my OP please don't bother posting on it
 
BobTheCoward said:
I don't agree. I think if someone of a different race talked like them and acted like them, they would treat them the same.
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We're both still talking about White Nationalists, right? Close-knit bunch, very short hair, big on jackboots and pointy hoods? You don't think they'd object if, say, a black guy dated their sister?

Alt joke: "ain't no one dates my sister but ME!"
 
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Beelzebuddy said:
We're both still talking about White Nationalists, right? Close-knit bunch, very short hair, big on jackboots and pointy hoods? You don't think they'd object if, say, a black guy dated their sister?

Alt joke: "ain't no one dates my sister but ME!"
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I thought we were talking about anti immigration anti multiculturalism rather than self described white supremacist.
 
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