Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Methos said:
IIRC this one originated on PMF with this post...
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Ha what a load of old nonsense and Chinese Whispers that all was then. Typical pro-guilt sloppiness, embellishment and transformation of rumour and innuendo into "solid fact".

And surfing through that .org archive, I've just come across (for the first time for me) the thread that documents - from the POV of the .org side - the split. Never was it more crystal clear that personal fiefdoms, egos and petty oneupmanship mattered far more to these people than the "cause" they attached themselves to. It's at once both hilarious and deeply saddening.
 
NotEvenWrong said:
Tell me what you mean by "primary source", because I don't think too many rational people would consider "Darkness Descending" or that new Amanda Knox ebook a "primary source". Expound please.
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I laugh heartily at the very notion of "Darkness Descending" being considered a primary source for information/evidence in this case! (And it should go without saying what my feelings are about the new Astrologer's eBook being similarly considered as a primary source :p).

Perhaps Vixen has got somewhat confused between the true meaning of "primary source" (i.e. as it's used in academia and the law) and the Wikipedia version of "primary source" (and "secondary source" etc). Wikipedia's overriding goal is not to open itself up to libel claims. It therefore leans almost predominantly upon an insistence on using works that have been published in a recognised manner (i.e. books with ISBN numbers that have a recognised publisher, rather than self-published e-Books for example), since this automatically creates a watertight defence against libel suits - the libel will be, in the first instance, the concern of the publisher and author of the original material.

Anyhow, in this case, the only things that count as a primary source are: court transcripts; court records; court files; direct quotes or writings from the protagonists themselves (e.g. Knox, Sollecito, Mignini, Stefanoni, Dalla Vedova....); and professional expert papers and communications (there may be a couple more that I have overlooked right now). Secondary sources - which would be acceptable with certain caveats - would include media reports of court proceedings (by reputable media outlets); direct quotes from peripheral figures in the case (friends, family etc).

Gosh, it's quiet in here tonight....... :p
 
LondonJohn said:
Ha what a load of old nonsense and Chinese Whispers that all was then. Typical pro-guilt sloppiness, embellishment and transformation of rumour and innuendo into "solid fact".

And surfing through that .org archive, I've just come across (for the first time for me) the thread that documents - from the POV of the .org side - the split. Never was it more crystal clear that personal fiefdoms, egos and petty oneupmanship mattered far more to these people than the "cause" they attached themselves to. It's at once both hilarious and deeply saddening.
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There's a thread on IIP which Chronicles the split into .NUT and .ogre. Mainly it is cut and paste of the various actors as they competed for being the one who held the highest their memory of the victim.

The trouble between Michael and Peggy began in Dec 2010 and festered until the unified site went down in March 2011

No one but a select few knew what the heck was going on when two separate sites resurfaced a week later. They managed to kept it quiet until a full blown internecine war broke out in early 2012.

The requisite bannings took place, like a politburo purge. All for Meredith.
 
Stacyhs said:
We mustn't be too hard on them or laugh too much. After all, it was all for Meredith. :jaw-dropp
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A bit staggering though, that the claim is that Meredith's family were involved with, supported Peggy Ganong and briefed her on their views of events.

All this is 4½ years ago, though, and I was unaware of the above.
 
Antony said:
A bit staggering though, that the claim is that Meredith's family were involved with, supported Peggy Ganong and briefed her on their views of events.

All this is 4½ years ago, though, and I was unaware of the above.
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I only read about it much, much later - I only came on the scene about 5 months after the split. It took a while to "get" that one had to distinguish between .NUT and .OGRE.

Then the conspiracy of silence broke. Out of it all, the most laugh-out-loud gaffaw in it all was when Peggy was accused of being part of the FOA-PR Supertanker, as a fifth column!

This stuff would be easier to quit if it was not for the weird stuff.... just when you think you've heard it all, something like that breaks out. All for Meredith.

http://captiongenerator.com/36934/One-of-the-Amanda-Knox-hate-sites-closes
 
Bill Williams said:
I only read about it much, much later - I only came on the scene about 5 months after the split. It took a while to "get" that one had to distinguish between .NUT and .OGRE.

Then the conspiracy of silence broke. Out of it all, the most laugh-out-loud gaffaw in it all was when Peggy was accused of being part of the FOA-PR Supertanker, as a fifth column!

This stuff would be easier to quit if it was not for the weird stuff.... just when you think you've heard it all, something like that breaks out. All for Meredith.

http://captiongenerator.com/36934/One-of-the-Amanda-Knox-hate-sites-closes
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Wait! Ergon isn't God? Then what's he been using my tithing for?
 
Vixen said:
Afraid so. Sorry to arouse your bitter envy yet again.

My professional chartered accountancy body (nota bene: by royal charter) is merging with AICPA, so presumably you don't consider CPA's 'real accountants', either.

http://accountingonion.com/2016/04/before-you-vote-on-the-aicpa-cima-merger-follow-the-money.html

You very rarely get anything right. Even when you scour my posts for ad hominem attack, you invariably shoot yourself in the foot. All because someone who disagrees with your views is too much for your fragile ego to bear.
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I consider CPAs real accountants. I don't consider management accountants real accountants. Hope that helps :)
 
Bill Williams said:
Can you take a look at this page, and explain why by Nov 16, 2007, the prosecution lost all interest in collecting evidence against Rudy Guede?

Thanks in advance.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/
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There is far more to solving crime than DNA evidence. How do you think they managed in the olden days?

Take James Hanratty. You remind me a little of Paul Foot, nephew of ex-Opposition Leader, Michael Foot, and civil rights campaigner. He passionately believed in Hanratty's innocence. He wrote a book about it. Produced evidence that Hanratty had an alibi elsewhere. Some Bed and Breakfast landlady provided testimony he was at her boarding house at the time of the rape of a woman, who was left paralysed and in a wheelchair, and murder of her married lover, whilst they had stopped their car on the A6 to make love.

Hanratty was the last person to be hanged in the UK as a result of the doubt.

I spoke with Paul Foot and he informed me that DNA of Hanratty's exhumed body, did place him at the murder, but Paul was still sure (hoping?) that it was contaminated.

Now Paul Foot was a sincere, decent guy, and Hanratty's supporters successfully convinced him to put his not inconsiderable political weight behind his 'Innocence' campaign.

I can see you are passionate, Bill, although I am not sure you are fully sincere as anyone who examines the evidence can see it was a travesty of justice for the Kercher family, for the pair to be let out after just four years as though it was a minor felony.
 
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(I also note the disingenuous failure to point out that even though the associations are merging, there will still be two very distinct classes of member with different accreditations. So there will still be real accountants (CPA) and management accountants (CMA/CGMA). One is entitled to call him/herself an accountant. The other is entitled to call him/herself a management accountant.)
 
Vixen said:
There is far more to solving crime than DNA evidence. How do you think they managed in the olden days?

Take James Hanratty. You remind me a little of Paul Foot, nephew of ex-Opposition Leader, Michael Foot, and civil rights campaigner. He passionately believed in Hanratty's innocence. He wrote a book about it. Produced evidence that Hanratty had an alibi elsewhere. Some Bed and Breakfast landlady provided testimony he was at her boarding house at the time of the rape of a woman, who was left paralysed and in a wheelchair, and murder of her married lover, whilst they had stopped their car on the A6 to make love.

Hanratty was the last person to be hanged in the UK as a result of the doubt.

I spoke with Paul Foot and he informed me that DNA of Hanratty's exhumed body, did place him at the murder, but Paul was still sure (hoping?) that it was contaminated.

Now Paul Foot was a sincere, decent guy, and Hanratty's supporters successfully convinced him to put his not inconsiderable political weight behind his 'Innocence' campaign.

I can see you are passionate, Bill, although I am not sure you are fully sincere as anyone who examines the evidence can see it was a travesty of justice for the Kercher family, for the pair to be let out after just four years as though it was a minor felony.
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If only this case was handled before the days of DNA.

Then all three of them would still be serving their 30 year sentences!

(Plot twist, one of the three's name would be Patrick Lumumba)
 
Vixen said:
There is far more to solving crime than DNA evidence. How do you think they managed in the olden days?

Take James Hanratty. You remind me a little of Paul Foot, nephew of ex-Opposition Leader, Michael Foot, and civil rights campaigner. He passionately believed in Hanratty's innocence. He wrote a book about it. Produced evidence that Hanratty had an alibi elsewhere. Some Bed and Breakfast landlady provided testimony he was at her boarding house at the time of the rape of a woman, who was left paralysed and in a wheelchair, and murder of her married lover, whilst they had stopped their car on the A6 to make love.

Hanratty was the last person to be hanged in the UK as a result of the doubt.

I spoke with Paul Foot and he informed me that DNA of Hanratty's exhumed body, did place him at the murder, but Paul was still sure (hoping?) that it was contaminated.

Now Paul Foot was a sincere, decent guy, and Hanratty's supporters successfully convinced him to put his not inconsiderable political weight behind his 'Innocence' campaign.

I can see you are passionate, Bill, although I am not sure you are fully sincere as anyone who examines the evidence can see it was a travesty of justice for the Kercher family, for the pair to be let out after just four years as though it was a minor felony.
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You never spoke with Paul Foot about Hanratty. Quit with the Walter Mitty fables please.
 
NotEvenWrong said:
Can you explain why you consider "Darkness Descending" a "primary source", but not the work of Peter Gill. Remember, Peter gill *invented* the analysis technique used on the knife blade in this case (LCN analysis). Walk me through your reasoning, step-by-step.



While your accountancy case study history is interesting in its own right, I am not sure how that relates to this case. You say you met with industry representatives. I am trying to draw a parallel with this case. Did you meet with the forensic scientists who worked on this case? The prosecution? The defense? The Italian Supreme Court? If not, what you are saying makes little sense. Please expound.



You said "emptor caveat" instead of "caveat emptor" lol. Then tried to explain it away by saying you were having a casual informal conversation in Latin.

I don't think LondonJohn sneered at the British Library. Link?



Then why don't you ever quote sources here unless asked for it dozens of times? Seems like you like to SAY you "quote sources" but don't actually do it.



No, you seem to resort to flowery adjectives instead.



How many guilter nutters that swallowed the prosecution propaganda are still left Vixen? Besides you, I mean. You still think Amanda was a crazed sex demon lol? Yeah, the entirety of forensic science, the Italian Supreme Court, and PIP sure have swallowed the "propaganda". If by "propaganda" you mean, "basic science" that is.



The fact that YOU of all people wrote this may be the most hilarious thing ever. Why do you keep saying "Amanda's DNA was on the knife blade" over and over and over again (as one example of dozens), after you've been provided proof that is not true hundreds of times?



You are right, when my rational argument fails, when I base my argument on fundamental principles of science and logic, and back it up by citations to peer reviewed papers written by the top men in forensic genetics, and someone responds by saying Peter Gill was paid off by Donald Trump and Richard Branson and Amanda is surely a witch, I may occasionally call that person an idiot or a super nut. You know why? Because people who say that kind of stuff are either a) an idiot, or b) a super nut.


Anyway Vixen, could we continue this discussion in the rational manner that I started this line of questioning with before you started with the nonsensical mudslinging:

Tell me what you mean by "primary source", because I don't think too many rational people would consider "Darkness Descending" or that new Amanda Knox ebook a "primary source". Expound please.
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Darkness Descending is a primary source in that it quotes Stefanoni and Garafano directly. Apart from that, it is pure tabloidese.

In terms of the Kercher case, Peter Gill had nothing to do with it, apart from providing Bongiorno for Raff an appendix to the appeal to the supreme court. He didn't see any evidence first hand and was not cross-examined.

You asked me to explain my research methods, and I responded accordingly.

Appealing to the crowd is a logical fallacy. Just because there are a dozen friends of Amanda Knox and agents of Gogerty-Marriott sock-puppeting on here, shouldn't lead you to believe they represent the views of the majority population.

It's also a logical fallacy to resort to ad hominem. It means you have really lost the plot.
 
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bagels said:
If only this case was handled before the days of DNA.

Then all three of them would still be serving their 30 year sentences!

(Plot twist, one of the three's name would be Patrick Lumumba)
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Exactly. And Vixen's example actually destroys the very point she thinks she is making. The point is that one follows the evidence. In Hanratty's case, the properly-analysed forensic evidence pointed (belatedly) to the firm and reliable conclusion that Hanratty raped Valerie Storie, and that therefore it was also he who shot and killed Gregsten and shot Storie. So one man's "intuition" - based largely on bogus eyewitness testimony, ironically - was totally trumped by far more reliable scientific (DNA) evidence.

In the Knox/Sollecito case, we have exactly the same in reverse. The lower courts found Knox/Sollecito guilty based on fundamentally flawed (and,to be frank, laughably dreadful) eyewitness/earwitness testimony and massively incompetent forensic work. When proper scientific protocol was applied to the physical evidence, and when the testimony of the alleged ear/eyewitnesses was seen for what it really was - a mixture of flat-out lies and confused inventions - it became perfectly clear that there was not one single piece of credible, reliable evidence linking Knox or Sollecito to the murder.
 
LondonJohn said:
You never spoke with Paul Foot about Hanratty. Quit with the Walter Mitty fables please.
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I certainly did. He lived nearby me in West Hampstead at the time and he was speaking at some local meeting. I approached him to chat about his book The A6 Murder , as it had made a big impression on me, and that's when he told me they had exhumed the body and matched the DNA. This was before it was even public news.
 
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