Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
Is there any record defense representatives being present when Stefanoni tested the knife or is this yet another of Vixen's lies.


IIRC the police gave notice of the tests only a few hours before they took place. And given that Mignini had circumvented protocol and common sense to appoint his *special* analyst Stefanoni to the case, and her lab was in Rome rather than anywhere near Perugia (Rome is about a 2.5-hour drive from Perugia, and probably much more given the horrendous traffic in and around Rome), there were clear logistical problems being presented to the defence lawyers.

In addition, of course, at the time these tests took place in mid-November 2007, neither Knox nor Sollecito had yet appointed proper legal teams. All they had were "emergency" lawyers from Perugia.

Besides all of that though, even if Knox and Sollecito had had the right set of lawyers visually witnessing the tests, there would still have been many many critical things that no mere eye witness to the tests could glean. In the case of DNA testing - and especially low template level DNA testing - the source electronic data files from the machines are of paramount importance (for reasons explained many times before on these pages). And those files could and should have been transmitted to the defence teams either electronically (preferable and extremely easy to do) or via printouts (less preferable, but still vastly superior to nothing).
 
Is there any record defense representatives being present when Stefanoni tested the knife or is this yet another of Vixen's lies.

Not sure if Vixen is actually "lying". She's simply robotically passing on talking points from 2008 as if no one has learned anything in the intervening 8 years.
 
Not sure if Vixen is actually "lying". She's simply robotically passing on talking points from 2008 as if no one has learned anything in the intervening 8 years.

This is probably true actually.

Vixen, do you know how to differentiate good source from bad? Honest question. Can you walk us through the way you evaluate sources?
 
This is probably true actually.

Vixen, do you know how to differentiate good source from bad? Honest question. Can you walk us through the way you evaluate sources?

I go to the primary source, instead of just googling.

When I did my accountancy case studies, I went to meet industry experts personally. When we had a particular industry case study, I went along to good representative of that industry and approached the departmental managers to find out what were their best selling products, I didn't just google 'top 100 products', I did my own research.

Google King LondonJohn can sneer at the British Library, but it is a fantastic source of primary material. A good education and foundation in real knowledge, beats one-minute wonder trivial pursuiters, who constantly shoot themselves in the foot with their faux corrections and schoolboy howlers.

In my pyschology degree we were grilled on how important it was to quote sources at every mention of any theory.

So, you see, unlike some, I have no need to resort to ******** and flowery adverbs.

As Mark Twain said, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. For all the PR, few people swallow the FOA propaganda, no matter how many times you care to repeat it.

The problem with the misinformation/ disinformation brigade is that they come to believe that, (a) 'If I say a thing , it becomes true'; (Amanda and Raff's motto: Semper mendacibus, and (b) if I keep on saying it, it must be true!

In the last resort, when all rational argument fails, do what Not Even Wrong does and resort to ad hominem, verbal abuse and name calling. NEW doesn't even go through the rational step, but often leaps straight into the logical fallacies.
 
IIRC the police gave notice of the tests only a few hours before they took place. And given that Mignini had circumvented protocol and common sense to appoint his *special* analyst Stefanoni to the case, and her lab was in Rome rather than anywhere near Perugia (Rome is about a 2.5-hour drive from Perugia, and probably much more given the horrendous traffic in and around Rome), there were clear logistical problems being presented to the defence lawyers.

In addition, of course, at the time these tests took place in mid-November 2007, neither Knox nor Sollecito had yet appointed proper legal teams. All they had were "emergency" lawyers from Perugia.

Besides all of that though, even if Knox and Sollecito had had the right set of lawyers visually witnessing the tests, there would still have been many many critical things that no mere eye witness to the tests could glean. In the case of DNA testing - and especially low template level DNA testing - the source electronic data files from the machines are of paramount importance (for reasons explained many times before on these pages). And those files could and should have been transmitted to the defence teams either electronically (preferable and extremely easy to do) or via printouts (less preferable, but still vastly superior to nothing).


Conspiracy Theory Umpty-Nine: The police sent the forensics to their laboratories in Rome, to rail road the kids. <fx swivel-eyes, shifty eyes left and right, looks over shoulder compulsively, sweats buckets, checks no spies are hiding in the wallpaper>.
 
Last edited:
Conspiracy Theory Umpty-Nine: The police sent the forensics to their laboratories in Rome, to rail road the kids. <fx swivel-eyes, shifty eyes left and right, looks over shoulder compulsively, sweats buckets, checks no spies are hiding in the wallpaper>.

Can you take a look at this page, and explain why by Nov 16, 2007, the prosecution lost all interest in collecting evidence against Rudy Guede?

Thanks in advance.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/
 
I go to the primary source, instead of just googling.

Can you explain why you consider "Darkness Descending" a "primary source", but not the work of Peter Gill. Remember, Peter gill *invented* the analysis technique used on the knife blade in this case (LCN analysis). Walk me through your reasoning, step-by-step.

When I did my accountancy case studies, I went to meet industry experts personally. When we had a particular industry case study, I went along to good representative of that industry and approached the departmental managers to find out what were their best selling products, I didn't just google 'top 100 products', I did my own research.

While your accountancy case study history is interesting in its own right, I am not sure how that relates to this case. You say you met with industry representatives. I am trying to draw a parallel with this case. Did you meet with the forensic scientists who worked on this case? The prosecution? The defense? The Italian Supreme Court? If not, what you are saying makes little sense. Please expound.

Google King LondonJohn can sneer at the British Library, but it is a fantastic source of primary material. A good education and foundation in real knowledge, beats one-minute wonder trivial pursuiters, who constantly shoot themselves in the foot with their faux corrections and schoolboy howlers.

You said "emptor caveat" instead of "caveat emptor" lol. Then tried to explain it away by saying you were having a casual informal conversation in Latin.

I don't think LondonJohn sneered at the British Library. Link?

In my pyschology degree we were grilled on how important it was to quote sources at every mention of any theory.

Then why don't you ever quote sources here unless asked for it dozens of times? Seems like you like to SAY you "quote sources" but don't actually do it.

So, you see, unlike some, I have no need to resort to ******** and flowery adverbs.

No, you seem to resort to flowery adjectives instead.

As Mark Twain said, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. For all the PR, few people swallow the FOA propaganda, no matter how many times you care to repeat it.

How many guilter nutters that swallowed the prosecution propaganda are still left Vixen? Besides you, I mean. You still think Amanda was a crazed sex demon lol? Yeah, the entirety of forensic science, the Italian Supreme Court, and PIP sure have swallowed the "propaganda". If by "propaganda" you mean, "basic science" that is.

The problem with the misinformation/ disinformation brigade is that they come to believe that, (a) 'If I say a thing , it becomes true'; (Amanda and Raff's motto: Semper mendacibus, and (b) if I keep on saying it, it must be true!

The fact that YOU of all people wrote this may be the most hilarious thing ever. Why do you keep saying "Amanda's DNA was on the knife blade" over and over and over again (as one example of dozens), after you've been provided proof that is not true hundreds of times?

In the last resort, when all rational argument fails, do what Not Even Wrong does and resort to ad hominem, verbal abuse and name calling. NEW doesn't even go through the rational step, but often leaps straight into the logical fallacies.

You are right, when my rational argument fails, when I base my argument on fundamental principles of science and logic, and back it up by citations to peer reviewed papers written by the top men in forensic genetics, and someone responds by saying Peter Gill was paid off by Donald Trump and Richard Branson and Amanda is surely a witch, I may occasionally call that person an idiot or a super nut. You know why? Because people who say that kind of stuff are either a) an idiot, or b) a super nut.


Anyway Vixen, could we continue this discussion in the rational manner that I started this line of questioning with before you started with the nonsensical mudslinging:

Tell me what you mean by "primary source", because I don't think too many rational people would consider "Darkness Descending" or that new Amanda Knox ebook a "primary source". Expound please.
 
The problem is the highlighted part.
This is a picture of the Manga books found at Raffaele Sollecito's apartment (courtesy of TMoMK):
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/images/a/ad/16060934.jpg
The one Vixen refers to is the third in the bottom row. (Btw. the collectors edition in the first row is mentioned in "Honor Bound".) ;)

If you google for "Blood the Last Vampire 2 Page 29" you'll get a picture of the page.

The picture showing in what position Meredith Kercher's body was found, can be found on this page:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/ It's slide 18 of the presentation.

"similar" perhaps but definitely not "exactly". :(

Thanks you saved me the trouble of doing this.

Points to make.

1) Whoever came up with this idea does not know the difference between anime (animated film) and manga (graphic novel). Blood: the last vampire anime has a Halloween scene. The manga is a sequel and has no halloween scene.
2) Saya the last vampire (Think of a Japanese version of Genevieve Dieudonne) is the 'heroine' and works for the government killing monsters 'chiropterans'. There is no vampire slayer except in as much as the vampire does the slaying.
3) The image from the manga
http://ex5.unixmanga.net/onlineread...t Vampire Complete/Blood-The-Last-Vampire-c02[m-s]/Blood%20066.png&server=nas.html
Shows a dead unclothed human killed by the chiropterans and several other captive humans. The dead human is female laying on her back with wounds on her abdomen, arms and legs. But none on her neck. Both arms are extended but the left leg is flexed.

In contrast the murder victim in this case was clothed (although clothes were in disarray). The victim had wounds on her neck but none on her leg, abdomen nor on her arms. (But did have defence wounds on her hands). The victim was (I believe) on her back like in the Manga image but the left arm is flexed rather than being straight and the right leg is flexed rather than the left. So in nearly all details different. Certainly not staged to resemble the image in the manga.

4) I accept that Vixen may be right in asserting that Mignini made a claim that the murder was inspired by Manga. If so this appears to be yet another of the many motives that came and went in this case and more extraordinary than most! I think it was never made in Knox's / Sollecito's actual trial. I think it was in the pre trial hearing or Guede's trial. i have not yet found a direct transcript as to what Mignini said.
 
Thanks you saved me the trouble of doing this.

Points to make.

1) Whoever came up with this idea does not know the difference between anime (animated film) and manga (graphic novel). Blood: the last vampire anime has a Halloween scene. The manga is a sequel and has no halloween scene.
2) Saya the last vampire (Think of a Japanese version of Genevieve Dieudonne) is the 'heroine' and works for the government killing monsters 'chiropterans'. There is no vampire slayer except in as much as the vampire does the slaying.
3) The image from the manga
http://ex5.unixmanga.net/onlineread...t Vampire Complete/Blood-The-Last-Vampire-c02[m-s]/Blood%20066.png&server=nas.html
Shows a dead unclothed human killed by the chiropterans and several other captive humans. The dead human is female laying on her back with wounds on her abdomen, arms and legs. But none on her neck. Both arms are extended but the left leg is flexed.

In contrast the murder victim in this case was clothed (although clothes were in disarray). The victim had wounds on her neck but none on her leg, abdomen nor on her arms. (But did have defence wounds on her hands). The victim was (I believe) on her back like in the Manga image but the left arm is flexed rather than being straight and the right leg is flexed rather than the left. So in nearly all details different. Certainly not staged to resemble the image in the manga.

4) I accept that Vixen may be right in asserting that Mignini made a claim that the murder was inspired by Manga. If so this appears to be yet another of the many motives that came and went in this case and more extraordinary than most! I think it was never made in Knox's / Sollecito's actual trial. I think it was in the pre trial hearing or Guede's trial. i have not yet found a direct transcript as to what Mignini said.

"Blood The Last Vampire" was mentioned by Mignini in his closing arguments to judge Micheli:
A questo va aggiunta, ai fini della ricostruzione della personalità dei tre imputati (su Amanda e Raffaele si tornerà in seguito), l'innegabile tendenzad i questi soggetti (in particolare del Sollecito) alla lettura di racconti particolarmente violenti, in particolare il manga "Blood The Last Vampire", fumetto rinvenuto nell'abitazione del Sollecito, contenente scene estreme di violenza e di sesso, oltre alla spiccata predilezione per tutti i tipi di coltelli.
It's interesting how some of the myths about this case were born... ;)
 
"Blood The Last Vampire" was mentioned by Mignini in his closing arguments to judge Micheli:

It's interesting how some of the myths about this case were born... ;)

Thanks so just a generic reference to Manga as corrupting influence on the youth. Just thank goodness Sollecito had not been reading something really violent like Scott Pilgrim, or watching Kill Bill or Mignini would really have had Sollecito dead to rights.
 
"Blood The Last Vampire" was mentioned by Mignini in his closing arguments to judge Micheli:

It's interesting how some of the myths about this case were born... ;)

So back to Vixen where did the story about the body being posed like in the manga come from? We have a quote from Mignini that does not say this. You have boasted how you go to primary sources Methos (and to a minor extent myself) have provided primary sources for Mignini, the position of the victim's body and the Manga. So do us a favour and give us your primary reference for this theory.
 
So back to Vixen where did the story about the body being posed like in the manga come from? We have a quote from Mignini that does not say this. You have boasted how you go to primary sources Methos (and to a minor extent myself) have provided primary sources for Mignini, the position of the victim's body and the Manga. So do us a favour and give us your primary reference for this theory.

IIRC this one originated on PMF with this post...
 
I go to the primary source, instead of just googling.

When I did my accountancy case studies, I went to meet industry experts personally. When we had a particular industry case study, I went along to good representative of that industry and approached the departmental managers to find out what were their best selling products, I didn't just google 'top 100 products', I did my own research.

Google King LondonJohn can sneer at the British Library, but it is a fantastic source of primary material. A good education and foundation in real knowledge, beats one-minute wonder trivial pursuiters, who constantly shoot themselves in the foot with their faux corrections and schoolboy howlers.

In my pyschology degree we were grilled on how important it was to quote sources at every mention of any theory.

So, you see, unlike some, I have no need to resort to ******** and flowery adverbs.

As Mark Twain said, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. For all the PR, few people swallow the FOA propaganda, no matter how many times you care to repeat it.

The problem with the misinformation/ disinformation brigade is that they come to believe that, (a) 'If I say a thing , it becomes true'; (Amanda and Raff's motto: Semper mendacibus, and (b) if I keep on saying it, it must be true!

In the last resort, when all rational argument fails, do what Not Even Wrong does and resort to ad hominem, verbal abuse and name calling. NEW doesn't even go through the rational step, but often leaps straight into the logical fallacies.


Much as I realise you'd like to believe that I blindly hammer words into Google, I actually research stuff properly. And I get it right. Unlike you, almost all of the time. Funny that, isn't it?

It's all very interesting (if worthless to the debate here) to read about your claiming to be an accountant. Still, at least you're a real accountant eh, and not a management accountant - which, as you will well know, is a different, and significantly inferior, animal to a real accountant. You ARE a real accountant, aren't you?
 
Last edited:
So back to Vixen where did the story about the body being posed like in the manga come from? We have a quote from Mignini that does not say this. You have boasted how you go to primary sources Methos (and to a minor extent myself) have provided primary sources for Mignini, the position of the victim's body and the Manga. So do us a favour and give us your primary reference for this theory.

Planigale - you're going to have to take a number.

Vixen first owes me one - just one - peer reviewed forensic-DNA expert who agrees with Stefanoni's work.

Vixen offered up Novelli, but all Novelli did was confirm that multiple amplifications is protocol!!

Then Vixen went quiet on the point.

Get to the back of the line, Planigale.
 
Look. If the DNA evidence against Amanda and Raff is rejected, as decreed by Marasca, then it follows, it must be rejected for the exact same reasons, for Rudy (so, it is clear he has grounds for a review, based on 'internal contradiction' with a final, irrevocable, verdict elsewhere).

You wilfully misprepresent Marasca when you claim it says, "all the evidence was actually wholly consistent with, and compatible with, Guede as sole perpetrator; and 4) therefore the overwhelming likelihood according to the evidence is that Guede committed this crime all by himself, and that neither Knox nor Sollecito had anything whatsoever to do with it."

(And you have the brassneck temerity to call me a liar at every possible opportunity like a kindergarten infant.)

In addition, if it is a case of 'even if', then it logically follows, to be internally consistent, 'even if Rudy was at the murder scene, it doesn't follow he is guilty'.

Remember: Marasca has rejected ALL the DNA evidence on the grounds 'Stefanoni did not follow international standards' and the sleeve of Mez' jumper must have been contaminated under the same conditions as the bra clasp, as it was collected at the same time, by the same people and tested in the same labs, by Stefanoni.

Let's use some Vixen logic...

What you're arguing is that the throwing out of DNA evidence against AK and RS should result in the throwing out of DNA evidence against RG. Right?

Now answer why, using your logic, this wouldn't result in the throwing out of DNA evidence against every single accused in Italy?
 
Conspiracy Theory Umpty-Nine: The police sent the forensics to their laboratories in Rome, to rail road the kids. <fx swivel-eyes, shifty eyes left and right, looks over shoulder compulsively, sweats buckets, checks no spies are hiding in the wallpaper>.


Facial movements are not an fx (effect). Please do try to learn what "fx" actually means and doesn't mean in respect of screenplays and scripts. It's getting tiresome.

Nobody (me included) has ever claimed that the decision to do the forensics in Rome was a "conspiracy" to "rail road the kids". And (though you're clearly not aware of this, even thought it was explicitly pointed out in my post) it was not the "police" who made this decision. The state police had, and have, a perfectly good forensics unit in Perugia. It was however prosecutor Mignini's decision to circumvent the Perugia team and phone up his "special friend" Stefanoni in Rome.

Perhaps that strange decision of Mignini's might have made sense in hindsight if Stefanoni had shown herself to be a first-class crime scene evidence processor and lab analyst. Unfortunately she showed herself to be shockingly - and probably unlawfully - inept and ignorant in almost every area of her work on this case. Which makes one wonder just what Mignini saw in her......................
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom