Merged Now What?

[McHrozni]

MPs and governments are elected on the basis of manifestos and can be held to account in elections.

Just like with almost any other policy, but this is only an issue with the EU for the some reason.

If you think I'm just repeating myself you might want to consider why that is.

The EU has already agreed to the EEA agreement.

In your dreams, maybe. In reality though, there can and will be no legally-binding decision until the UK triggers article 50.

McHrozni

 

[Aepervius]

When I hear somebiody from UK speaking of democracy deficit I always laugh a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords

Sure it changed a bit in the recent decade, but it still composed partly by some un-elected member AFAIK, including member from church of england, and it was originally wholly un-elected.

So when I hear bickering from UK about undemocratic un-elected people, I laugh a lot. And I want to hand them over a mirror.

 

[Tolls]

It's still wholly unelected...
They just reduced the influence of some of the hereditary peers.

 

[Tolls]

While I'm here, I'm surprised no one has commented on our chancellor's con re: the guarantee of ensuring certain EU contributions will be matched by the government until 2020.

Unless I misunderstood what he was saying, isn't that essentially no guarantee at all? At best, assuming we do the whole article 50 thing at the beginning of next year, isn't he just saying "we'll keep up this support for 2019"? And if we don't trigger it until 2018 then there's nothing there at all anyway.

 

[Aepervius]

It's still wholly unelected...
They just reduced the influence of some of the hereditary peers.

But now if I read correctly wiki at least the party name the majority of peer after an election.

Still people having a legislative process with hereditary peer even if not the majority should not complain too much about un-elected legislative process. Heck, comissionnar are still named by the original country , 1 each, and that by elected governments. So it is still 1 better than the house of lord.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

except we'd save a lot of money

Have you factored in our increased borrowing and currency devaluation into this saving?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

MPs and governments are elected on the basis of manifestos and can be held to account in elections.

And those governments then appoint their representatives to the EU club.

No different than the cabinet or the PM even.

Seems odd that the Brexiters are so wrapped up in EU democratic deficit that they can't see that the UK is just as bad if not worse.

 

[McHrozni]

Have you factored in our increased borrowing and currency devaluation into this saving?

Yeah. I seem to remember reading that the devaluation caused by Brexit has already cost the UK more than it's gross contributions to the EU in the past 36 years were.
I could be wrong on it though.

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

Norway hasn't ruled out British re-entry into EFTA.
They have said they would like a political veto if we were to rejoin the European Free Trade Association.

Remember, the Guardian article is biased, the paper was pro EU and anti Brexit. The journalist of that article has an agenda.

Riiight so the only reputable sources are those like the Sun, Daily Mail and Daily Express - the ones which were pro-Brexit

 

[Dave Rogers]

If such a referendum were to occur and the options were as follows:

*WTO MFN rules.
*EFTA - EEA agreement (pre existing free trade agreement).
*Seek new free trade agreement.

I would go EFTA EEA. It's the option of least disruption.

If the options were those three, plus "Stay in, because it's better than any of the above," and #4 won, what then?

Dave

 

[McHrozni]

If the options were those three, plus "Stay in, because it's better than any of the above," and #4 won, what then?

Dave

Obviously it would have to be ignored, because 51.89% of the votes in a referendum were for the option he liked, so any future referendums who show a result he dislikes are undemocratic and to be ignored.

That's the standard, anyway. He might be an exception, but I doubt it.

McHrozni

 

[SusanB-M1]

Mass immigration (of mostly white people) from the European Union was an issue used by Vote Leave. And (without being xenophobic) they had a point. It's not possible to have a points based system for European migrants whilst being a member of the European Union, it's not xenophobic to propose such a system, a person of any nationality would be judged by their character, not their skin, mother tongue or their country.

Have you been listening to any of the 'Brexit Street' items on the PM programme recently?

I did not vote to leave because of the official campaign, I voted because of my own studies.

How much study did you give to the views of the younger generation whose whole life has been in the EU and whose views were, I believe, very much on the remain side?

 

[Tolls]

But now if I read correctly wiki at least the party name the majority of peer after an election.

Still people having a legislative process with hereditary peer even if not the majority should not complain too much about un-elected legislative process. Heck, comissionnar are still named by the original country , 1 each, and that by elected governments. So it is still 1 better than the house of lord.

Oh yes, quite.

I argued all this during the referendum build up. It was rather frustrating.

 

[catsmate]

They aren't allowed to elect their Commissioners either and as such lack the same choice in defining the future direction of the EU, so how do you know they have a different vision ?

UK ministers aren't elected either. So what?

Obviously.

Goo. I'm glad you accept that.

Just as if you want access to NAFTA, ASEAN, MERCOSUR or APEC's markets, you have to accept their terms.

Also true.

But other free trade organisations do not interfere with the democracy of their members or partners, as illustrated previously with the EU vat directive of 2006, as well as their railway directives and their rules on state aid, or the ability for members to have their own bilateral free trade deals.

Hey, you want access, you play by their rules.

Vote Leave gave a gross figure pre rebate. It was misleading. I did not vote because of them.

It was a lie, designed to play on the public's ignorance. It helped Leave win.

Most EU migrants are white.

Yes they are. Which didn't stop the Leave campaign appealing to racists in a manner reminiscent of the infamous "If your want a ****** for a neighbour, vote Labour" slogan.

Meanwhile non EU migrants were being discriminated against by the UK government before the referendum. Requirements included paying more than a thousand pounds just to be here, and earnings of more than £35k or facing deportation.

Yes, and...?

Industrial decline. Fisheries. Democratic deficit. General displeasure with it.

Ah, yes, the typical UK tactic of blaming all the nation's problems on the EU.

With the Commissioners doing the negotiating on behalf of 27 other governments as well as ours.

You mean doing they job. The EU is intended to benefit the whole EU, not just the UK.

It can take over ten years for the EU to negotiate tariff free deals with other countries.

I await, with anticipatory amusement, Britain's efforts.

TTIP will no longer apply. That was a big concern in the referendum remember ?

No it wasn't. Scare-mongering over immigration and lies about money for the NHS and other UK issues were.

 

[catsmate]

It's still wholly unelected...
They just reduced the influence of some of the hereditary peers.

Cameron created 117 new peers even before his resignation list added 45 more.

 

[catsmate]

Nothing would change in that respect, except we'd save a lot of money (Just under £8.5bn a year)

I'd like to see some evidence for this assertion.

 

[Tolls]

I missed Airfix's comments re: other free trade associations.

The wiki for MERCOSUR has a section on their aims part of which says:
"
Coordination of macroeconomic and sectorial policies of member states relating to foreign trade, agriculture, industry, taxes, monetary system, exchange and capital, services, customs, transport and communications, and any others they may agree on, in order to ensure free competition between member states;

The commitment by the member states to make the necessary adjustments to their laws in pertinent areas to allow for the strengthening of the integration processes.
"

They also have rules around bilateral agreements. It has a common tariff, for example.

I seem to remember ASEAN is looking to a more EU based model.
Aren't they looking to put together some form of human rights court? I can't imagine that not impacting local laws.

 

[catsmate]

I missed Airfix's comments re: other free trade associations.

The wiki for MERCOSUR has a section on their aims part of which says:
"
Coordination of macroeconomic and sectorial policies of member states relating to foreign trade, agriculture, industry, taxes, monetary system, exchange and capital, services, customs, transport and communications, and any others they may agree on, in order to ensure free competition between member states;

The commitment by the member states to make the necessary adjustments to their laws in pertinent areas to allow for the strengthening of the integration processes.
"

They also have rules around bilateral agreements. It has a common tariff, for example.

I seem to remember ASEAN is looking to a more EU based model.
Aren't they looking to put together some form of human rights court? I can't imagine that not impacting local laws.

They are. There's already an Intergovernmental Commission on Human Rights and they adopted the ASEAN Human Rights Declaration in 2012. A full court is being looked at.

 

[Tolls]

Which means that, from at least two of the examples given of trade areas that the EU should be more like, both of them are moving to be more like the EU.

It's almost as if it's realised that closer legal systems are needed to make these things work.

 

[Klimax]

We voters have never had any formal input anyway.
It's policy makers do not have to seek election on the back of a manifesto.
...

Check out European Parliament...

...
TTIP will no longer apply. That was a big concern in the referendum remember ?
...

Too bad Britain was biggest proponent of TTIP...