I am not taking issue with your statement, what I want to know is how LHO "untraceable day-to-day" was determined. As I best understand LHO had a daily job at the Reilly Coffee Company (I am sure the full and correct name is more than I stated) and his time stamps have been provided. Was LHO any less traceable than, let's say, Clay Shaw? Again, I am not disputing your claim, I am looking for a baseline or reference point. thx
JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales
- Thread starter Robert Harris
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Axxman300
Philosopher
The key is to think like a CTist. You're being rational, and that will never work if you want to sell a book, or put up a website to pimp advertising and malware.
A realistic example is Oswald's firing range visits before the assassination. He didn't have a car, and someone drove him to and from. We know because the witnesses claim he was there with another man. Where things get fuzzy is exactly how many times he went to the range as one occasion where witnesses claim they saw him, Oswald was actually in Mexico City.
In the real world this would draw the shooting range witnesses into question, but using CT standards it's a goldmine. CTers would ask why the FBI never pressed these witnesses while normal people would point out that it's not all that important to the story because IT'S TEXAS - PEOPLE SHOOT GUNS THERE...so a guy giving Oswald a ride to the range is on par with a guy giving a fellow golfer a ride to the course.
Again, I know Oswald was the lone gunman. I accept the facts as stated, and everything I have read about Oswald points to him. I can't see anybody putting him up to the killing because he was clearly unstable. Proof here being that the USMC didn't try him for desertion, the KGB thought he was a nutjob and only allowed him to stay in Russia because he tried to kill himself, and he could never get his act together in any meaningful way. This is not a man the mafia, or the CIA does business with as he would be too big of a risk...and the biggest risk of putting a guy like Oswald in place as your shooter is that there would be a 50% chance he chickens out.
Look at it this way, the guy forgets to bring his pistol with him that morning. He brings his rifle but not a backup piece? Why go back for it? He had a locker at work, why not bring a change of clothes to change into and escape? Why not pay for a ticket at the movie theater?
He's not James Bond. Sorry about rambling...
HSienzant
Philosopher
Yes. And in the CT world, that doesn't imply a mistaken witness; in the CT world that implies an Oswald double.
He was already discharged for a medical reason... his mother, he said, needed his help at home due to an injury she suffered. She really didn't, but that was a way to advance his discharge. After his defection, it was changed to an undesirable discharge, which Oswald felt was unfair. He didn't desert his post, he was already discharged.
No argument there.
No. The revolver was stored at the rooming house, not the Paine's. So if he wanted the revolver on Friday, he had to take it to work on Thursday morning, when he left his rooming house, and then keep it with him all day (or stow it somewhere in the building) and then take it to the Paine's on Thursday evening and back on Friday morning.
The problem with this is he DOESN'T want to be in possession of the revolver when he attempts to leave the building after the assassination. If he does have it, he cannot be certain he won't be searched as he leaves the building, and if he is searched, he's going to be detained as a suspect. So he has to look innocent by NOT having the weapon. Bear in mind he almost was searched by officer Baker on the second floor within about 90 seconds of the assassination - but Roy Truly vouched for him ("He works here") and Baker abandoned any thought of Oswald being the guilty party.
So his thinking was sound on that point... leave the revolver at the rooming house and go back for it after the assassination.
Yes, see above.
To the rooming house? Because he had unfinished business. General Walker was still alive. Ask yourself why he didn't shoot JFK from Elm Street with the revolver. Shooting at JFK with the rifle gave him an opportunity to go get the revolver and shoot Walker. Shoot JFK with the revolver and he doesn't have an opportunity to kill the guy he once compared to Hitler.
I was unaware Oswald had a locker at work. A search of the WR pdf reveals the only occasion the word 'locker' appears is in relation to Oswald having an illegal weapon in the marines and shooting himself in the arm.
On October 27, when Oswald opened his locker to remove some gear, a derringer .22 caliber pistol fell to the floor and discharged ; the bullet hit him in the left elbow. Paul Edward Murphy, a fellow marine who was in the next cubicle, heard the shot, rushed in, and found Oswald sitting on the locker looking at his arm ; without emotion, Oswald said to Murphy, "I believe I shot myself." He was in the naval hospital at Yokosuka until November 15. The Judge Advocate General concluded that Oswald had "displayed a certain degree of carelessness or negligence" by storing a loaded revolver in his locker, but that his injury was incurred "in the line of duty" and was not the result "of his own misconduct."
Any delay in leaving the building might prevent him from leaving at all. Just as Oswald couldn't be sure he would not be searched, he couldn't be certain how quickly the police would seal off the building and prevent anyone from entering or leaving.
If he wanted to leave, his best opportunity - maybe his only opportunity - was to leave quickly.
He was cheap, and probably thought nobody saw him enter. It's usually some dumb action that gets a criminal ensnared... like dropping your car keys at the scene of the murder or something like that.
If he had paid, he still might have been arrested (he had already drawn the attention of Johnny Brewer by acting suspiciously in the Hardy shoe store alcove), but maybe Brewer shrugs it off and doesn't ask Postal to call the police and report the guy.
Hank
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Axxman300
Philosopher
I hadn't thought of Walker. Maybe he had a bigger day planned...which makes sense because it insures he gets caught.
This is where his planning broke down. Going back to the rooming house was his mistake. At least in downtown Dallas he could remain invisible for a while longer.
HSienzant
Philosopher
I'm not at all certain he wanted to get caught. I think he planned to gun down Walker and then try to escape to Cuba.
If he was content to just stay free, he could have taken a bus out of town at the Greyhound Bus Station after leaving the Depository - it was only a few blocks from Dealey Plaza.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/G...a9d506071e199a!8m2!3d32.7783864!4d-96.8042972
Instead, he walks beyond the Greyhound Bus Station to catch a local bus that will take him to the rooming house, but when that gets stuck in traffic, he gets off the local bus, gets a bus transfer, and walks to the Greyhound Bus Station. Given another opportunity to leave the state entirely, he instead hails a cab and takes it past his rooming house (so he could scope it out). Clearly, given all he went through to obtain it, at that point the revolver was worth its weight in gold to him (if not more so).
The other thing these actions show is that Oswald had no co-conspirators. If there was anyone else in on a plot with him, they could have handed him the revolver (or a revolver) a few blocks away from the assassination scene once he departed the Depository. They could have driven him to the rooming house, or to Walker's residence. Or to Tijuana.
Instead, he had to rely on public transportation to get his revolver, and had to hoof it to the transfer point on Jefferson Avenue where he could catch the bus to take him to Walker's residence. While hoofing it, of course, he was seen by Officer Tippit, leading to his shooting Tippit, and eventually to his arrest.
Hank
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BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
Generally speaking, the LHO type bad actor goes after bigger fish each time they act - I haven't heard of a instance where somebody returned to finish something they didn't complete, outside of failed criminal hits, Danny Greene in Cleveland comes to mind first on that type of deal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Greene
HSienzant
Philosopher
Granted, I'm not a mind-reader, but his urgency in getting his revolver (abandoning a bus to take a cab for what he said in custody was the first time in his life) speaks to me of seeking that weapon for more than defensive purposes, as some conspiracy theorists claim. His best defense was either getting out of town as quickly as possible, or turning himself in to the nearest police officer as he left the depository, and saying "I've been set up for the assassination. I think. Here's what I know..."
He didn't do that. He went and got the revolver. To me, it was for an offensive purpose. And Walker appears to be the obvious target.
But it's clearly a speculation on my part.
EDIT: Some other conjectures I've read is he was going to take a bus to Mexico, and take a bus to Love Field and use the revolver to hijack a plane to Cuba.
Hank
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Axxman300
Philosopher
If he'd left the pistol and remembered his A.J. Hidell I.D. he probably would have been able to talk his way out of the situation with Tippit. From what I've read about Tippit he seemed to be an easygoing guy.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Well, Oswald's name had not been announced yet and the description of JFK's shooter was kind of sketchy, so we don't know what caused Tippit to pull over near Oswald.
But the ID could not have helped Oswald any - because at the time of Tippit's shooting, Oswald wasn't a wanted man in any sense. It was just 45 minutes after the assassination.
Some of the witnesses described Oswald as going west, others said he was going east. Perhaps Oswald saw Tippit's patrol car approaching and did an about-face -- attracting Tippit's attention (and causing the differences in the witnesses recollections). With both men dead, we'll probably never know the exact cause.
Hank
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
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Oswalds actions to me suggest no more than he had planned the shot, and panicked when it worked. His plans fell away as the weight of his actions hit him. CTs all talk about what a real shooter would do. They all assume everybody thinks clearly, all the time. I for one am not surprised by stories that Oswald went downstairs and got a coke. The guy was probably number. As he begins to think through the fog, he panics and goes to get another gun. Sees Tippit, assumes he is the target (even if Tippit hadn't even seen him), and pulls the trigger. More blood. More panic. He goes to the cinema to hide...
HSienzant
Philosopher
Yet he was thinking clearly enough to get off the bus when it got stuck in traffic and take a cab for the first time in his life; AND then gave the cabbie an address PAST his rooming house so he could apparently scope it out and see if the police had arrived there yet... no sense in delivering yourself right into the hands of the police who are looking for you. And smart enough to abandon a jacket to try to change his appearance after shooting Tippit, and then getting off the streets now swarming the area looking for the cop killer by ducking into a theatre. If Brewer doesn't step up and have Julia Postal call the cops, Oswald leaves the theatre a few hours later and slips away. Those aren't necessarily panicked actions to me.
I grant that people can see those actions differently than I do.
Hank
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
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Well yeah. Being in a panic, and being scared do not have to mean stupid. Shooting Tippit makes sense, and fits into the image neatly if you view it as the action of somebody who is scared and having to stay a step ahead of his own fears. He thinks to duck into a theatre, but rather than pay and risk somebody recognising him, he sneaks in and draws attention to himself, or whatever.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
LHO was no criminal mastermind - something that exists in popular fiction as a nornal day-to-day occurrence but in the wild it's extremely rare.
He was a little man with more ambition than talent and a screwed world view.
Throw in access to firearms and you've got a recipe for tragedy.
In the spirit of conjecture, it might be that LHO originally thought he would either be fired on by Secret Service/FBI agents while still at the window or immediately taken into custody and when that didn't happen he believed he might have a chance to get clear.
Viewed w/ 2016 eyes, it's hard to believe that in the wake of a Presidential assassination a LEO wouldn't have weapon in hand approaching anyone of interest, but '63 sure isn't 2016. I've always wondered why Tippet wasn't more switched on, but he wouldn't be the first LEO to get caught flat-footed.
I know of plenty of instances, many more than I wish, where an officer wasn't switched on and prepared to act in defense of their own life and was murdered - it's no excuse for excessive or unlawful use of force but an officer absolutely needs to have their thinking cap on when they're otj in uniform or otherwise.
He was a little man with more ambition than talent and a screwed world view.
Throw in access to firearms and you've got a recipe for tragedy.
In the spirit of conjecture, it might be that LHO originally thought he would either be fired on by Secret Service/FBI agents while still at the window or immediately taken into custody and when that didn't happen he believed he might have a chance to get clear.
Viewed w/ 2016 eyes, it's hard to believe that in the wake of a Presidential assassination a LEO wouldn't have weapon in hand approaching anyone of interest, but '63 sure isn't 2016. I've always wondered why Tippet wasn't more switched on, but he wouldn't be the first LEO to get caught flat-footed.
I know of plenty of instances, many more than I wish, where an officer wasn't switched on and prepared to act in defense of their own life and was murdered - it's no excuse for excessive or unlawful use of force but an officer absolutely needs to have their thinking cap on when they're otj in uniform or otherwise.
Axxman300
Philosopher
The Hulu mini-series "11.22.63", based on the Stephen King novel is out on DVD this week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXUx__qQGew
I binge-watched it yesterday. It's excellent. I recommend it to history buffs of all types as well as JFK assassination buffs regardless of which side of the CT world you're on.
Once you get past the premise the show puts you on the ground in Texas from October 1960 to November 23, 1963. The filmed at many actual locations while faithfully recreating others.
Daniel Weber is an excellent Lee Oswald.
The show explores all of the CTs respectfully while working to the climax where LHO is the lone shooter. While doing this the show reveals how situations can look like something that they're not.
We also get to see General Walker and his followers, which is a key component to understanding Oswald, and while the shooting at his house is detailed, the show never lays it at LHO's feet until the final episode.
I was born in 1964, and much of this series brought back memories - it is done so well.
Yes, it's a Stephen King story and there is Stephen King stuff throughout, but is explained at the beginning, and makes the story work (at least for me). The story only gives you about 7 minutes of the alternate history, which is predictable, and focuses mostly on the countdown to the assassination while the hero tries to live a normal life.
Good stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXUx__qQGew
I binge-watched it yesterday. It's excellent. I recommend it to history buffs of all types as well as JFK assassination buffs regardless of which side of the CT world you're on.
Once you get past the premise the show puts you on the ground in Texas from October 1960 to November 23, 1963. The filmed at many actual locations while faithfully recreating others.
Daniel Weber is an excellent Lee Oswald.
The show explores all of the CTs respectfully while working to the climax where LHO is the lone shooter. While doing this the show reveals how situations can look like something that they're not.
We also get to see General Walker and his followers, which is a key component to understanding Oswald, and while the shooting at his house is detailed, the show never lays it at LHO's feet until the final episode.
I was born in 1964, and much of this series brought back memories - it is done so well.
Yes, it's a Stephen King story and there is Stephen King stuff throughout, but is explained at the beginning, and makes the story work (at least for me). The story only gives you about 7 minutes of the alternate history, which is predictable, and focuses mostly on the countdown to the assassination while the hero tries to live a normal life.
Good stuff.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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Axxman300
Philosopher
Christine makes a cameo, along with a dozen other King Easter Eggs.
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
The Hulu mini-series "11.22.63", based on the Stephen King novel is out on DVD this week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXUx__qQGew
I binge-watched it yesterday. It's excellent. I recommend it to history buffs of all types as well as JFK assassination buffs regardless of which side of the CT world you're on.
Once you get past the premise the show puts you on the ground in Texas from October 1960 to November 23, 1963. The filmed at many actual locations while faithfully recreating others.
Daniel Weber is an excellent Lee Oswald.
The show explores all of the CTs respectfully while working to the climax where LHO is the lone shooter. While doing this the show reveals how situations can look like something that they're not.
We also get to see General Walker and his followers, which is a key component to understanding Oswald, and while the shooting at his house is detailed, the show never lays it at LHO's feet until the final episode.
I was born in 1964, and much of this series brought back memories - it is done so well.
Yes, it's a Stephen King story and there is Stephen King stuff throughout, but is explained at the beginning, and makes the story work (at least for me). The story only gives you about 7 minutes of the alternate history, which is predictable, and focuses mostly on the countdown to the assassination while the hero tries to live a normal life.
Good stuff.
If anyone is interested in JFK (and MLK and RFK) assassination fiction, I highly recommend James Ellroy's American Underworld trilogy - American Tabloid, The Cold Six Thousand and Blood's a Rover - gratuitous namedropping here - I know Elroy and he busts my balls about our long running difference of opinion on the subject, giving me an advance copy of Blood's signed by him with the name Carlos Marcello underlined three times with an exclamation point included.
Axxman300
Philosopher
tinribmancer
Hasbarian NWO Templar Cattle
Are there CTers that think that "they" have already cloned JFK?
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
"They" haven't?
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