Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[whoanellie]

Many scientifically barely-literate individuals

and then there's vixen

 

[Annella]

Well perhaps, in a way.....

....but (as has been pointed out many times before) there are still some live, interesting and significant topics to discuss and debate here. Notably the fallout from the satellite trials, the progression of the ECHR application, and any potential wider ramifications for the likes of Mignini, Comodi, Stefanoni, Giobbi, Profazio, the Italian State Police and the Italian criminal justice system.

However, yes it's fair to say IMO that the (rational) debate on the murder-related charges against Knox and Sollecito is well and truly over. The vindictive, ill-informed and dishonest "arguments" against Knox's/Sollecito's acquittals within this thread are an irrelevance. But I can't help but be drawn to their amusement value, their "Baghdad Bob" levels of sheer chutzpah and denial, and their occasional nasty (and very telling) hyperbolic bitterness.

So, to me, this thread is a combination of an ongoing search for enlightenment, education and debate, coupled with a rich source of amusement. Of course, my very use of the word "amusement" in respect of this thread is almost certain to draw howls of self-righteous protest from a certain quarter about how disgusting it is that I derive amusement from a thread discussing the horrific murder of a world-class, beautiful woman who, had she lived, would have become a world-renowned figure of greatness.... and that I derive amusement from my "hero-worship" of the people who held that beautiful woman down, tortured and killed her, then had sex over her dead/dying body......

Love this, which kinda covers it!

Former Perugia appellate Judge Pratillo Hellmann, who overturned the convictions in 2011, has described the investigation as "scarily amateurish" and blamed bias and self-protection among the fraternity of magistrates for the reinstated convictions. Even a juror who served on a panel that reinstated Knox's conviction last year has told Italy's Oggi magazine that there was "questionable proof, flimsy evidence and bizarre testimony".

 

[Matthew Best]

It is a legend I have heard tell.

Oh gosh, it was on the Lulu Show. Same thing.

This won't be a surprise to anyone, but the Lulu Show is not the same thing as Top of the Pops.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

This won't be a surprise to anyone, but the Lulu Show is not the same thing as Top of the Pops.

I have met people who are wrong a lot, and yet refuse to ever admit it or change their way of thinking. Vixen, however, takes it to an entirely new level. I am in awe that someone like her actually exists.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have met people who are wrong a lot, and yet refuse to ever admit it or change their way of thinking. Vixen, however, takes it to an entirely new level. I am in awe that someone like her actually exists.

I've never run across anyone who's attributed "typo" so much to the times they've been **proven** wrong. Then there're the times that she's posted pictures or provided a link that actually proved the opposite of what she'd claimed.

Remember the photo of the bars on the lower window, you know the one that she'd said had no bars on it?

Or the times that Massei in 2010 wrote something that refuted a well worn guilter factoid, explained by Vixen as a casual throwing of a point the defence's way?

All of those things make Donald Trump sound sincere when he said he was only kidding about Obama being the founder of ISIS.

 

[Stacyhs]

I have met people who are wrong a lot, and yet refuse to ever admit it or change their way of thinking. Vixen, however, takes it to an entirely new level. I am in awe that someone like her actually exists.

She and Trump should have lunch together. They can commiserate on how misunderstood they are all the time by everyone else.

 

[Numbers]

A federal judge has thrown out the conviction of Brendan Dassey, a case involving a false confession. Note that the interrogators' use of repetitive leading and suggestive questions is one motivation for the judge to rule that the defendant's rights were violated and to overturn the conviction.

The judge's order claims the detectives who were investigating Halbach's murder promised Dassey prosecutorial leniency in exchange for his cooperation during his March 1, 2006, interrogation.

"The investigators repeatedly claimed to already know what happened on Oct. 31 and assured Dassey that he had nothing to worry about," the decision reads. "These repeated false promises, when considered in conjunction with all relevant factors, most especially Dassey's age, intellectual deficits, and the absence of a supportive adult, rendered Dassey's confession involuntary under the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments."

The judge's decision suggests he had "significant doubts" concerning the reliability of Dassey's confession.

"Crucial details evolved through repeated leading and suggestive questioning and generally stopped changing only after the investigators, in some manner, indicated to Dassey that he finally gave the answer they were looking for," the ruling reads. "Purportedly corroborative details could have been the product of contamination from other sources, including the investigators' own statements and questioning, or simply logical guesses, rather than actual knowledge of the crime."

Source: http://www.people.com/article/brend...viction-for-teresa-halbachs-murder-overturned

 

[LondonJohn]

A federal judge has thrown out the conviction of Brendan Dassey, a case involving a false confession. Note that the interrogators' use of repetitive leading and suggestive questions is one motivation for the judge to rule that the defendant's rights were violated and to overturn the conviction.



Source: http://www.people.com/article/brend...viction-for-teresa-halbachs-murder-overturned

Note that the Perugia police put a lovely twist on the "corroborating details" aspect of the unlawfully-coercive interrogation: they ordered Knox what to say (that she'd met with Lumumba and taken him to the cottage where he had attacked and killed Kercher), suggested to Knox that she'd been cowering in the kitchen with her hands over her ears to block out Kercher's screams, then used those very "facts" as corroborating details in their own right!

"Knox must have been recounting the truth! She told us how she met with Lumumba and took him to the cottage - and we already knew that she'd met with Lumumba and that he was the murderer! And she added in the accurate detail that she'd covered her ears with her hands while Kercher screamed!!"

That's called circular reasoning, and it's as improper and unlawful as the coercive interrogation itself.

 

[Numbers]

Here is a case of false confession, coerced by police interrogators, which led to a wrongful conviction that has now been overturned, from Japan (excerpt):

Furthermore, police investigation reports and notes kept by investigators — disclosed as evidence in the retrial process — showed that the officers who questioned the two used coercive and deceitful tactics to get them to confess, during which they both wavered between confessing to and denying the charges. In its acquittal of Aoki and Boku, the district court rejected the credibility of their confessions as evidence, saying it is suspected that the police investigators put the two in a “situation where they had no choice but to make false confessions” by “instilling fear and adding excessive psychological pressure” from the time they were arrested.

The question that needs answering is why all these obvious doubts were not raised during their initial trials — or even during the police investigation and the subsequent probe by prosecutors. This is the question that all parties involved in the criminal justice system must address. Wednesday’s ruling exposed how police investigators led the suspects into confessing to acts they had not committed, but does not reflect on how the judiciary itself failed to challenge the investigators’ version of events.

Source: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion...s/osaka-arson-murder-acquittals/#.V65nDa103XV

 

[Vixen]

This goes back to my point I made in a previous that the prosecution's evidence has no credibility, is riddled with flaws and PGP have to resort to lying to cover up these flaws. The fact Stefanoni did not hand over the negative control tests is a sign which indicates the supposed DNA on the knife is highly suspect. PGP have to lie that Stefanoni handed in the negative control tests to make Stefanoni's work appear valid.

This is one of the craziest, most paranoid conspiracy theories we have heard to date. The wallpaper was really composed of Russian spies all listening in and reporting back to HQ.

 

[Welshman]

This is one of the craziest, most paranoid conspiracy theories we have heard to date. The wallpaper was really composed of Russian spies all listening in and reporting back to HQ.

Instead of adressing the issue I raised all Vixen can do is shout conspiracy theory.

 

[Bill Williams]

Instead of adressing the issue I raised all Vixen can do is shout conspiracy theory.

It's one thing to be chided with these conspiracy-conspiracy shrieks by a contrarian on an obscure Internet forum with declining participation and even more declining viewership....

Just imagine in 2009 or 2011 being denied the very negative controls needed to demonstrate contamination, and then being told by a judge - a judge - that it is your job to prove a route of contamination rather than just say it's a possibility.

I can forgive Vixen because her evasions are mostly inconsequential. But imagine someone grabs your upper arm to take you to prison because of it.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

This is one of the craziest, most paranoid conspiracy theories we have heard to date. The wallpaper was really composed of Russian spies all listening in and reporting back to HQ.

I'm with you Vixen. It is definitely way more likely that the court records showing the defense experts and the independent court experts asked for the controls multiple times, and did not receive them, were forged; world renowned forensic scientists Peter Gill (who invented the technique used to analyze the knife blade), Bruce Budowle, Greg Hampikian, Conti, Vecchiotti, and others were paid off; the Italian Supreme Court was corrupted and bribed; the American media all paid off by "Friends of Amanda"; and Forensic Science International (and now, Nature, as Bill points out) were all paid off by Raffaele's lawyers......

rather than Stefanoni the prosecution's lab tech wasn't very good at her job and withheld the controls to cover her ass.

You're right Vixen, stating Stefanoni did not provide negative controls is a paranoid conspiracy theory of the highest magnitude!!! Where do all these crazy people come from?

 

[Welshman]

I'm with you Vixen. It is definitely way more likely that the court records showing the defense experts and the independent court experts asked for the controls multiple times, and did not receive them, were forged; world renowned forensic scientists Peter Gill (who invented the technique used to analyze the knife blade), Bruce Budowle, Greg Hampikian, Conti, Vecchiotti, and others were paid off; the Italian Supreme Court was corrupted and bribed; the American media all paid off by "Friends of Amanda"; and Forensic Science International (and now, Nature, as Bill points out) were all paid off by Raffaele's lawyers......

rather than Stefanoni the prosecution's lab tech wasn't very good at her job and withheld the controls to cover her ass.

You're right Vixen, stating Stefanoni did not provide negative controls is a paranoid conspiracy theory of the highest magnitude!!! Where do all these crazy people come from?

Vixen's over the top reaction to my post indicates I may have touched a raw nerve.

 

[Vixen]

She and Trump should have lunch together. They can commiserate on how misunderstood they are all the time by everyone else.

Can you arrange that for me?

 

[Vixen]

I'm with you Vixen. It is definitely way more likely that the court records showing the defense experts and the independent court experts asked for the controls multiple times, and did not receive them, were forged; world renowned forensic scientists Peter Gill (who invented the technique used to analyze the knife blade), Bruce Budowle, Greg Hampikian, Conti, Vecchiotti, and others were paid off; the Italian Supreme Court was corrupted and bribed; the American media all paid off by "Friends of Amanda"; and Forensic Science International (and now, Nature, as Bill points out) were all paid off by Raffaele's lawyers......

rather than Stefanoni the prosecution's lab tech wasn't very good at her job and withheld the controls to cover her ass.

You're right Vixen, stating Stefanoni did not provide negative controls is a paranoid conspiracy theory of the highest magnitude!!! Where do all these crazy people come from?

Before I subscribe to the view 'the PGP all have to lie to cover up for Stefanoni', Welshman rather begs the question: is there any hap'orth of evidence she is (a) corrupt (b) incompetent, or (c) unqualified?

Unlike the prosecution or the defence, forensic scientists will see themselves as 100% neutral, objective and scientific, they will be aware of ethical threats and how to guard against them.

Your scurrillous claims against a decent professional are insulting, sexist and disgusting.

 

[bagels]

Vixen how come the PGP so passionately believe AK is a killer?

 

[Samson]

Before I subscribe to the view 'the PGP all have to lie to cover up for Stefanoni', Welshman rather begs the question: is there any hap'orth of evidence she is (a) corrupt (b) incompetent, or (c) unqualified?

Unlike the prosecution or the defence, forensic scientists will see themselves as 100% neutral, objective and scientific, they will be aware of ethical threats and how to guard against them.

Your scurrillous claims against a decent professional are insulting, sexist and disgusting.

Vixen, I keep thinking of you and fox lox. Oh for back in the day stories (apologies for that dreadful new saying back in the day)

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id...KHY5FCF4Q6AEIWTAP#v=onepage&q=fox lox&f=false

It appears chicken licken was being led astray by fox lox.

 

[Vixen]

It's one thing to be chided with these conspiracy-conspiracy shrieks by a contrarian on an obscure Internet forum with declining participation and even more declining viewership....

Just imagine in 2009 or 2011 being denied the very negative controls needed to demonstrate contamination, and then being told by a judge - a judge - that it is your job to prove a route of contamination rather than just say it's a possibility.

I can forgive Vixen because her evasions are mostly inconsequential. But imagine someone grabs your upper arm to take you to prison because of it.

As the evidence against the pair is rock solid, including utterances from their own mouths, it's rather a moot point as to whether contamination is possible or probable, but thanks for your kind forgiveness anyway.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen how come the PGP so passionately believe AK is a killer?

As you know, the statement written by Amanda's own hand was deemed impermissible evidence, as was her confession to being at the murder scence.

Raff refused to testify. Just as well, otherwise both Amanda and Raff could have been cross-examined on his unretracted statement to the police he didn't know where she was between 20:45 and 01:00.

Even Marasca called them bald-faced liars.

Only a perp or an accessory to the crime would deliberately and calculatingly lie to the police in such a horrendous crime in such an icy cold manner.