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Continuation - The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

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@ Gilbert Syndrome in comment #3134:
Everything you write is a lie, even the "and" and the "the."

IOW, you are a bad-faith disputant whom I will never read or reply to again.

Do me a favour and explain how any of it is a lie...

lol.

It's clearly pretty factual, mate.

And you already claimed to have me blocked, btw, so I suggest you stop harping on about not communicating with me, you're starting to sound like my girlfriend. :rolleyes:

You blatantly asked me to show you anywhere that you argued against the Gemora butt, and I just showed you exactly what you were after.

When asked about that frame, you specifically said that maybe that's the frame we should be ignoring. I'm sorry, but in my world, that's the literal opposite of being in support of something. You were quite clearly suggesting that it shouldn't be taken seriously.

Thanks for playing/trolling. You're obviously not here for any kind of actual debate, and on the contrary, you do seem to be championing Patty as a real Bigfoot, despite your claims otherwise.

To use your favourite slogan, that's disingenuous, Roger.
 
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I said:
But if we are to humour ourselves with any analysis, then we could ask why Patty seems to be wearing a diaper beneath her fur which is strikingly similar to Gemora's ape-suit butt-pads.

Is that a natural feature on every Sasquatch, or just Patty?


Roger said:
Maybe that’s the frame(s) we should distrust, not the ones I’ve shown, eh?

Then Roger said:
Like your claim that there was a finger-flex frame in "my" PhoktoBucket account, this claim comes out of your imagination. I'll give you $100 if you can quote me as arguing against the diaper butt, here or anywhere.

On the contrary, I said that the diaper butt and images like it troubled me.


DISINGENUOUS. :o
 
I see a Siamese cat in the second one.

To be honest, it's hard to dispute that there could be a Siamese cat in that frame, it's such a vague blurry mess. Hardly surprising that MK sees Patty bending, though, as we all know that he's a few clowns short of the full circus, with all of his little daydreams about braided hair, bloody hand-prints and other dead Bigfoots.

The fact that Roger sees any kind of bending Bigfoot, and expects us to, is yet more indication that he's not playing with a full deck, imo.

Also take into account the fact that he's mentioned suits not being able to show the detail of the PGF, has been shown that they actually can, and has stated that he's not arguing in favour of Patty's authenticity, while at the same time doing nothing but arguing in favour of its authenticity.

He also claimed to be bothered by the Gemora-butt and then told me that it should probably be ignored, and then told me he'd never argued against it.

Lather, rinse and repeat with all of this "I'm not arguing against it, but..." scenario that we get with Bigfoot proponents.

"I'm not saying Patty is a real Bigfoot, but they can't make suits like that even today, and look at those bulging calfs..."

Same old script, different actors.
 
Roger Knights said:
Nowhere have I argued that Bigfoot exists as a natural animal in the real world, although I think there’s a chance that it does...
...My research specialty is a critique of Heironimus and associates. . . . My POV on the validity of Bigfoot is on the fence...

...And so it might be said that by defending the PGF’s authenticity I’m also implying a belief in Bigfoot. I assume that’s what you’re assuming. But that’s not necessarily true...I’m saying it’s unresolved...

...It’s odd for me to have more faith in the reality of Patty than of Bigfoot, because most Bigfooters hold the reverse position. But it’s where the evidence and arguments lead me...
Up until a few weeks ago it had been at least 8 years since I'd last seen you on a forum discussing Bigfoot. And in 2008 I would have laid a bet that "Of all the people on the BFF capable of seeing the light, RogerKni has to be one of them." With a side bet you'd laugh out loud afterwards for having ever believed in such foolishness.

But that's not what happened. Apparently you didn't see any light. With nary a crumb of "new Bigfoot evidence" since 2008 - which takes into account literally thousands of "Bigfoot expeditions" that regularly claimed contact but not once got a picture - you still conclude that Bigfoot is a "maybe"? Really? You couldn't be looking at the same "evidence" I've been looking at. Yet you claim you went where the "evidence" took you? Maybe, but not before you changed the meaning of "evidence". Or "went".

And now you're arguing BH's part (or not) in it all as a front to your obviously "bigger question" (boldly highlighted in your quote above) of Bigfoot's existence. The sad truth is we're all past that Roger. There is no Bigfoot. We mostly just point and giggle at the lunacy required to continually "pretend" there is a Bigfoot. You're either pretending or stupid. Neither one is good. :eye-poppi

Roger Knights said:
...BTW, in the comment following the one to ABP that I cited, I appreciated this comment of yours and will include its point in my compendium on Heironimus:...
Glad to help. :thumbsup:

To be clear, I don't believe anyone thinks you're stupid. But be aware that "stupid is as stupid does". And not seeing the forest for the trees isn't a virtue. Maybe you came here to help resolve your ("It's odd for me...") cognitive dissonance? To see if we're serious? To see what the people who say "no way" really mean? No? Do you seriously think there's "evidence" of Bigfoot?
 
@HarryHenderson. I now put the odds of Bigfoot’s existence at 1 in 10, down from my 9 in 10 (implicit) estimate of over a dozen years ago. Here is the “con” card from my dueling pair of double-sided business cards on the dispute:

23 Reasons Why Bigfoot’s Unlikely
1. Little hard evidence: No bones or fossils [2–6 fall under this]
2. Few ape-like forest-traces (nests, etc.)
3. No body—not even one has been killed
4. Few photos, & those vague or questionable
5. Patterson film phony, says primatologist J. Napier
6. Hair, prints, & dermal ridges could be faked
7. What does it eat? Few rich foods in Pacific NW
8. Winter: Why rarely seen then?; Harsh some places
9. Sustainable population = 9000, but sightings rare
10. Locale-appearances are unnaturally irregular
11. Some dogs should have run it down by now
12. Doesn’t fit well into fossil-record & primate family

Witnesses assert unlikely things [13–18 fall under this]:
13. Sighted outside PNW, but too few to breed there
14. Sightings in far north, and even in UK & Europe
15. Witness’s descriptions are inconsistent
16. More sightings than footprints—suspicious
17. // “Sightings” of Eastern cougar & UK Big Cats
18. 15+ hominids seen world-wide
19. Mankind has a psychic need for mythic monsters
20. The media has primed the populace to “see” BF
21. Eyewitness testimony is unreliable
22. Sightings: mistakes, hoaxes, inventions, or delusions
23. Sum of objections has a collective weight
Witness pool is tainted; so NO such data is acceptable
BF, being tall, would be impeded by tree limbs

Here’s a fuller exposition of some of those items. This was written over a dozen years ago and before I wrote before the boiled-down list above:

REASONS TO BE SKEPTICAL OF BIGFOOT:

This list doesn’t include certain reasons skeptics think are weighty, but I don’t. I’ll deal with them in another post. Nor does it include several reasons I’ve thought of in the past, because I’ve forgotten them. (I hope readers can supplement this list with additional considerations that wobble their belief in Bigfoot.) As I said to EO, either informed belief or informed disbelief must involve agony; there is no clear-cut resolution to the debate. It seems almost equally impossible to believe and to disbelieve, though belief seems more parsimonious.

What does it eat? Its environment is not rich in high-calorie foods. And there are seasons when food is scarce. To say that bears thrive ignores the fact that they have claws to dig in the ground & tree-trunks for roots & grubs. And rural residents are not reporting many food-raids on their gardens & outbuildings.

What does it do in the winter? Its tracks are rarely seen in the snow. Winters in some areas where it is seen are very harsh—it would need to find a cave—but there are none. Or hibernate—but hominids don’t do that (so far).

Wouldn’t Bigfoot, being tall, always be impeded by tree limbs? A bear can move through a forest because it’s low to the ground, where branches don’t interfere with it. (The retort is that Bigfoot’s so strong he just brushes them aside.)

Why aren’t there more traces of Bigfoot left in the forest? Compared with the many nests and stripped branches left by gorillas, Bigfoot seems to have a suspiciously low impact on his habitat. (Of course there are twisted tree trunks & branches—but some or most of those might have been created by deer & elk.)

How can it be so elusive? Apparently most dogs refuse to track it, and those that do either get killed or come back whining. But there must be some with the right blend of boldness and caution to track it and then keep their distance, the way certain dogs that track other dangerous animals do. (There’s something promising for a BF organization to follow up—finding a couple of dogs that will track a BF so they can be quickly taken to sighting locations.) Why hasn’t one of them been killed, of the two dozen or so that have been shot? Why have no road-kills turned up? Why have no other cases of accidentally killed Bigfeet occurred? The woods can be dangerous—for example, why hasn’t a Bigfoot stepped on a bear trap, or slipped and fallen from a cliff, etc.?

Why haven’t there been more sightings? If there is a breeding pool (as there must be), there must be thousands of Bigfoots, so we could hardly avoid running across them more often. (My comeback to this is that the size of the breeding pool may be much smaller than we think it must be. But it’s still odd that there are so few sightings—only one a day in N.A., on average.)

How can it survive outside certain favorable environments? There are sighting reports from every part of the U.S. & Canada. It stretches credulity that they are living in areas where there is little cover or food. In addition, in the past 20 years there have been a dozen sighting reports from Britain, and a dozen more from Europe. All these outlier reports call into question the believability of the central reports from the Pacific Northwest and parts of the South and Midwest. (A partial comeback to this is that the sightings mostly occur in the traditional areas where there is good cover, food, and mild winters. But this answers only part of the objection.)

How can there be a dozen or so varieties of undiscovered hominids world-wide, as reports imply? It stretches credulity that they could all be real, and yet not one of them be confirmed.

Why aren’t reporters’ descriptions more consistent? Here’s what bipto had to say on this over a year ago:
“The glowing vs. not glowing thing is strange, but when I used to have a cat most of the time his eyes didn't glow, but other time they did and quite strikingly. Here's a few other discrepancies that strike me about some reports:

> Pointy head vs. round head
> Big, muscular build vs. thin, scrawny build
> Sometimes stinky, sometimes not
> Prominent brow vs. sloping forehead
> Long hair vs. short hair

“I can understand variations in color and height, but some of these other things seem like they should be more consistent. Either there's a large variety of body types out there or there's more than one type of bigfoot.”

Who are its ancestors in the fossil record? There’s only gigantopitecus, and it’s not a very likely candidate because it was probably not bipedal. (The comeback to this objection is that the great apes aren’t found in the fossil record either. Still, it weakens the case for Bigfoot that he seems to be an evolutionary outlier.)

Why have appearances in particular locales been so irregular? For example, consider this year 2002 quotation, from the weirdnj.com site: “AFTER A TWENTY YEAR HIATUS, Big Red Eye is back in town. Bigfoot, or Big Red Eye as he is locally known, is no stranger to New Jersey. He's been prowling about since the turn of the century. There were more than 50 sightings of Bigfoot in the 1970's and these were in Sussex County alone. Then as mysteriously as Big Red Eye appeared, he dropped out of sight for nearly twenty years, only to resurface again recently in isolated appearances, such as the five known sightings on Layton Road in Wantage starting from around 1995.” This hot-and-cold pattern seems similar to UFO flaps (i.e., possibly paranormal), and dissimilar to sightings of natural animals.

Perhaps eyewitness testimony is less trustworthy than it seems. Apart from the standard objections to such testimony, perhaps witnesses are seeing something like Mothman or a Chupacabras—something that has apparent reality, but seemingly pops in and out of our world from somewhere else. This possibility is strengthened by the BBC’s recent technological scan of Loch Ness, revealing it to be empty of large critters. Other cases where reliable witnesses saw something that nevertheless may not really exist include sightings of the Eastern cougar and Alien Big Cats in Britain (for which there is insufficient supporting evidence in the environment) and a handful of sightings of “True Giant” Bigfeet over ten feet high (too much, I hope). So whatever the witnesses saw may have come from Elsewhere.

Can ALL the strained “explanations” [i.e., explainings-away] of the above be correct?
************

Oh, BTW: I put the odds of the PGF’s authenticity at 2 in 3.

Incidentally, the Hendersons had just left Index, Washington when they ran into Harry. Index is about 30 minutes NE of Seattle. (The sentence where Index is mentioned is only muttered.) I’ve been to Index twice, to go up Deer Mountain and observe Deer Lake, where an acquaintance who was with me said he had had a sighting years earlier.

But let's not get distracted too much by this post and diverge for long off topic (Heironimus).
 
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IOW, I came here to debunk Heironimus.

Very carefully worded for vagueness, and it has to be when we are BLAARGing.

We cannot say that we are debunking Bob Heironumus as "Actor in the PGF Suit". Because the case is way beyond what a jury needs. So we just spin this giant aimless noise wheel.

It's pretty simple. Bob was in college, in the service overseas, in jail or whatever when the PGF was being filmed. He can't be in it because _____.

Just put your top reason in there that would even be of the slightest interest. The fact a person with this alleged specialty has never done so evinces the BLAARGing design.
 
The last two “moonshot” frames of Patty derives their authenticity from the three frames shown here preceding them, in which her back is first upright (for her—i.e.,, already 20-degrees leaning forward), then bends more in each of the next four frames until she’s about 75 degrees bent forward and her head—a brown smudge—is only about a foot higher than her butt. (Note: there are some frames in between the frames shown that M.K. Davis omitted due to bad blurring.)

The last frame, brown-tinged, is blurred somewhat, but what should help is viewing it is the context of the preceding four frames. The last frame’s mostly missing back was there in the preceding frames. What looks like they might be legs were legs in the preceding frames; ditto the butt. This is therefore something that cannot be dismissed as a merely imagined face in the clouds or blobsquatch, because the preceding frames weren’t, and there’s no way she could have morphed into a blobsquatch in a quarter of a second (four frames).

[IMGw=800]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/RogerKni/BF%20Patty%20Bending/MKD-looking-upatstart169_zps5efa9c45.jpg[/IMGw]

Pattysbutt-upright-walk1_zps7299162a.png


Pattysbutt-bending-walk1_zpse5c26e77.png


MKDPattyBending_zpsc9b99f75.png


Pattysbuttzoomout_zps50bbaf94.jpg


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ABP said:
It's pretty simple. Bob was in college, in the service overseas, in jail or whatever when the PGF was being filmed. He can't be in it because _____.

Just put your top reason in there that would even be of the slightest interest. The fact a person with this alleged specialty has never done so evinces the BLAARGing design.

I need to engage Kit in a dialog on this. In Sept. 26, 2010, on BFF, he posted a rebuttal of my anti-Heironimus Amazon review of Long's book, titled "26 reasons alphabet soup with Roger Knights.” It's at http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?...consider-the-pgf-a-hoax/&page=76#comment-8489

I want to rake him over the coals on most of those 26 Items. (He got me on two items, and there were a few inconclusives.) This will provide a public education on the credibility of Heironimus’s claims.

But first I want him to reply to me on the preliminary question I posed about the names of BH's six Idle Hour witnesses, and 3 questions about his interview with Gary Record. I assume he's now researching those matters and getting his ducks in a row.

Right now I'm busy offline doing a write-up to fulfill his request to me to provide evidence of roadside hoaxing by Heironimus.

Sayonara, ABP; I don't like your tone, so I'm turning you off.
 
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Here's my Amazon review of Greg Long's Making of Bigfoot book, titled "A Tale of Two Suits: 26 Reasons Heironimus Wasn't 'Queen Kong,'" June 20, 2005

By Roger Knights

Here is a list of the redeeming qualities of Long's book. It is Excellent in Parts:

There were non-controversial portions with new information on four topics:
* Patterson himself. (Chs. 5-8 & 12.)
* DeAtley. (Ch. 16.)
* Timeline of the film's development. (Ch. 17.)
* Ownership history of the film, and related legal hassles. (Ch. 19.)

I found from my interviews with some of the book's interviewees that Long's character sketches seemed accurate. The book, in its non-argumentative portions, was "a good read." (Though it would have benefited from a copy editor's attention in spots, especially the index.) Long's asides about the scenery and soft drinks are OK, according to the tenets of New Journalism. And his (implausible) theory that RP used Roe's sighting as a film-script at least demonstrated imagination.
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Content edited for compliance with rule 4 of the Membership Agreement. Quote tags added for readability and to delineate copied material. The original content may be found here.
 
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And here's Kitakaze's rebuttal, at http://bigfootforums.com/index.php?...-the-pgf-a-hoax/page__view__findpost__p__8489

"26 reasons alphabet soup with Roger Knights”

A - Heironimus' description of the suit being different than Morris' is not Heironimus contradicting Heironimus. BH could have remembered wrong or remembered right. Morris' suit could have either been significantly altered with funds from DeAtley after him seeing the Morris suit, or an entirely new one created. Knights fail.

B - Knights claims to have interviewed Gary Record. I have done this myself. He made absolutely clear it was an evening in October 1967 and he was not in the military at the time. He said it was about 9pm. I have interviewed three of the other witnesses present. Knights fail.

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So, Roger's not saying that Bigfoot exists, he's just saying that the PGF shows an actual Bigfoot. Or something along those lines.

And I'm still not seeing any sign of Patty bending, but my mind is bending just reading this nonsense. :confused:
 
Sooooo....Roger your submitting rebuttals to posts on BFF in a none existent debate with Kit here on ISF....okey dokey!
 
Since we're typing so much . . .

TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE IN BIGFOOT

A - It is exactly nowhere in the natural history or the fossil record of North America,

2.) It doesn't exist.

.
 
[imgw=800]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/RogerKni/BF%20Patty%20Bending/MKD-looking-upatstart169_zps5efa9c45.jpg[/imgw]

Pattysbutt-upright-walk1_zps7299162a.png


Pattysbutt-bending-walk1_zpse5c26e77.png


MKDPattyBending_zpsc9b99f75.png


Pattysbuttzoomout_zps50bbaf94.jpg


Why are these pictures so small? The first one is close to decent, but then they become tiny cropped images. Davis produced these. There's no good reason why they can't all be the same size. I suspect nefarious intent. He is trying to trick the audience. It's his standard method.

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Plus, how can you tell Patty is slouched over 20 degrees when we're viewing her from the back? Please show graphically.
Thanks
 
If you look at the first and largest image you see that the sand berm increases in height towards the right side of the frame. Patty is walking in that direction. She is actually walking both away from the camera and to the right. In that first image her legs are obscured from view by that berm. With each subsequent frame more of her lower body gets concealed.

Eventually her butt becomes concealed behind the berm. At that point all that is visible is the back and the head. This is what we see in the tiny cropped images. Patty hasn't bent over or fallen down. She's still walking upright but much of her body is hidden behind the sand berm. More gets hidden with each step she takes.

Patterson probably realized that she was soon to be completely hidden so he stopped and shifted position.

Davis may have done these tiny croppings so that you cannot properly see the rising berm. He intentionally created an optical illusion where one should not really exist.
 
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