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What makes Scientology a pseudoscience and separates the reactive mind from real scie

I just have to pop in with a strong recommendation of "Going Clear" by Lawrence Wright as a great book on Scientology. The Documentary made from the book is good,the book is better,thought.
Bare Faced Messiah by Russell Miller is also good but is a biography of Hubbard that ends with his death,whereas Going Clear takes the story of the COS up to pretty much the present day.
 
My Dad says he actually wrote up his stuff for psychiatrists but theyrejected him so he turned to the masses and kept a life long grudge about it, which, knowing how science works and how other theories fought to be accepted, is ridiculous.. It's like if you turned in a manuscript for a novel, got rejected once, and spent the rest of your life weaving conspiracies about the evil publishing agencies that hate you.

It's probably also helpful for Hubbard to keep his followers from looking at any other field of psychotherapy, lest they see a resemblance.

Yes, that is my understanding also. He presented his ideas, but they were half-baked and amateurish, he had very little education. He took the rejection personally, and hated psychiatrists the rest of his life. He never did try to educate himself, instead he simply invented Dianetics and Scientology, using scraps he picked up here and there, and his imagination.

You do have to give the man some credit for inventing ideas which fooled so many people and made so much money.
 
From reading Bare Faced Messiah, it is clear that Hubbard suffered from undiagnosed and untreated schizophrenia.
Hubbard mentioned in his private diaries he suffered from a "social disease", and complained of the excess of the sulfa drugs the navy required him to take. Thomas Moulton, who served with him in 1943, mentioned the occasions he witnessed him voiding bloody urine. Syphilis perhaps? (my speculation)
 
Hubbard mentioned in his private diaries he suffered from a "social disease", and complained of the excess of the sulfa drugs the navy required him to take. Thomas Moulton, who served with him in 1943, mentioned the occasions he witnessed him voiding bloody urine. Syphilis perhaps? (my speculation)

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One wonders where he came about his bit of knowledge (and hatred for) psychotherapy. During his brief college career (leaving after being placed on academic probation in the second year) he didn't take any related subjects.

I always assumed the opposition to clinical psychology and psychiatry was based on the fact that they are rivals, both for the money Scientology makes for 'treatments' and the status of the crackpot ideas they promote as alternatives.
 
I always assumed the opposition to clinical psychology and psychiatry was based on the fact that they are rivals, both for the money Scientology makes for 'treatments' and the status of the crackpot ideas they promote as alternatives.

Probably a combination that Hubbard did not like psychology because he found it premises objectionable,and that it was competition to Scientology.
 
I always assumed the opposition to clinical psychology and psychiatry was based on the fact that they are rivals, both for the money Scientology makes for 'treatments' and the status of the crackpot ideas they promote as alternatives.
I'm sure that was part of it, but he was deeply offended when he wasn't let into the "club" and his ideas and qualifications ridiculed, it formed the basis of a hatred that went beyond just opposition. One could argue that one of his principal motivations ( second to making money of course) was to get back at the eggheads.
 
Could you tell me more about the idea outside the context of Scientology and its fall into disfavor?
Well, briefly, Freudian psychoanalysis has lost some scientific ground to cognitive science. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has proven more effective in treating certain psychological disorders. Psychoanalytic theory is hard to experiment with, unlike Cofnitive Science and CBT. If you really think about it, Freudian theories don't have any basis in actual physical structure; it's mostly just a theory without any way to see if any of it is true. Indeed, Freudian Psychoanalysis has often been criticized as a pseudoscience-much like Hubbard's theories. Sure, psychoanalysis still has it's adherents -for whatever reason, it can be effective- but it's much harder to find actual practitioners of it than more modern, emperically based therapies like CBT.
 
I am also late to this party, but Scientology is one of my pet interests.

Let's start with the very basic concept of Scientology: the engram. When you strip away all of Hubbard's bluster, you are left with a concept that is actually pretty interesting -this idea that past moments of unconsciousness are recorded in a deep part of the mind and then exert an influence upon the person. The problem is that this interesting idea 1)is more or less ripped off from others (Freud, Jung, Korzybski and others) and 2)There is absolutely no evidence that it actually describes anything close to the reality of the human mind. Take the next basic concept, The Reactive mind and the Analytical mind. Again, just reading it as it is, it SOUNDS plausible that the Reactive mind is where these engrams reside and the Analytical mind is basically your everyday conscious mind. But again, this is just a crude rephrasing of Freudian psychology (which itself has fallen into disfavor) and there is zero evidence that any of it is true.

Hubbard wasn't writing for scientists. His goal was to come up with something that was plausible to the layman, create a therapy around the theory and charge people an arm and a leg to undergo the therapy. He made numerous claims of scientific legitimacy yet not one shred of that evidence has ever turned up. The only conclusion is that he never actually did any experimentation; he basically just took other people's ideas, changed them up a bit and started his own therapy with nothing behind it but unfounded claims. He is really no different than modern day psuedosciences like PowerBalance bracelets, Deepak Chopra's "philosophies," or homeopathy.

Any real science requires evidence that lead to hypotheses that lead to experiments that lead to more evidence that lead to more hypotheses . . . and no evidence is accepted that can't be repeated by others. There is absolutely none of this in Scientology: Hubbard's word as it was conceived by him at the time he wrote it is considered the final unalterable truth. And anyone who questions this is labeled Suppressive and cast out, sued, harassed, etc. THAT's why it's a psuedoscience.

But you aren't going to convince anyone who is deep into Scientology with that.

Well done. One of the exasperating things about any discussion with a Scientologist is the impenetrable jargon, a fake vocabulary pretending to show insight into something that is just gibberish.

But none of it sounded plausible to me, yes - it was long discredited pseudo-Freudian science fiction mixed up with this stress detector. A total con job and you can see the eyes glazed over with these people caught up in it.

The reason for making it a religion was to avoid fraud charges, along with the tax exempt status. You can believe whatever you want about their little meter if it is a religion. So how in the hell can it be science if it is expressly a religion? In order to evade scientific evaluation of its claims. Talk about ludicrous!
 
I always assumed the opposition to clinical psychology and psychiatry was based on the fact that they are rivals, both for the money Scientology makes for 'treatments' and the status of the crackpot ideas they promote as alternatives.

Exactly. Hubbard published is first Dianetics article in a Science Fiction magazine, not a science journal.

He was absolutely full of ****. Made the whole thing up, no link whatsoever to established clinical psychology or psychiatry of the time. He had no training whatsoever. So sure, this science fiction writer is going to suddenly solve psychological disorders in people.

Well, he was nothing if not a manipulative *******. So he had people like Tom Cruise put on denunciations of Psychiatry/Psychology and other marketing tactics. To turn people away from clinical science and to his fraud.
 
One thing that still sticks to my mind is the intake / free whatever from Scientology I once did as a student when I was bored on an afternoon.

It consisted of 200 ish multiplechoice questions, which all could be answered with yes / maybe / no.
And the questions were all broad, sweeping questions without any actual clarification.
Things like 'a child cries, would you hit it?' Without any indication of the age of the child, the reason for crying, the length etc.
While I might be tempted to smack a 10 year old crying for 1 hour because (s)he did not get a third cooky, I would never hit a one year old with a burn wound.

So I truthfully had to answer most questions as 'maybe'. Surpisingly the test showed me as a person utterly unable to make up his mind, who did not know what he wanted with his life. Good thing they had a course for that, I could start for the low price of....
When I pointed out the questions were totally unscientific I got shouted at and I would come back once my life was a total mess. (that was 24 years ago, still waiting on it).
I told this to some friends, so they took the course too and answered mostly yes or mostly no. One was diagnosed as a hopeless optimist that did not know when to stop, the other as a near-depressed lost case that never saw the bright side in life. But fortunately for both a course was about to start...


That was great, thanks.
 
I'm talking about low level Scientology material only. Spurious BS that only comes much later is not relevant. This is not about the claims made in the upper levels of Scientology. This is about the logic Scientologists use to define something as a science.

It's not that I don't have an inkling (or more) to the answers to these questions for myself, I just want to compare my own answers to yours, so I'm playing devil's advocate and asking where exactly the reactive mind differs from known psychology other than assertions about the subconscious. I was raised in Scientology, so I've had a bias to emphasize the parts that correspond with common knowledge while looking over the debatable aspects. I mean Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and phobias acquired from bad experience are known facts right? Other than dealing with the subconscious and cell imprints, the reactive mind doesn’t seem to much differ from what’s accepted about the mind other than being an arbitrary border between rational and irrational aspects of the mind.
I know I just partially answered my own question, I just want to know if I fully answered it.

Second, more broadly, what makes Scienology a pseudoscience?

After all, Scientologists say Hubbard tested his techniques on a number of people to see what worked and what didn't work and kept only what was workable. Is the right answer just a matter of "It needs to be confirmed by independent studies or peer reviewed"? Or is that the wrong direction for an answer? That usually gets a response about not needing approval from scientists who know nothing of the subject and thus aren't qualified.

Scientologists point to the scientific method; You make an observation, do an experiment to test it by trying a Scientology technique) and form a conclusion based on the result. This is empiricism, at least to the Scientologist. And that is the scientific method applied on a personal level to find out what works for oneself.

What is wrong with this criteria for "science"?

Edit: I need to give some examples of what a Scientologist might test and believe to work

- They run out a traumatic experience from the "reactive mind" in auditing and feel a chronic pain go away or some other improvement.

- They do a touch assist or nerve assist and feel better afterward.

- They do a scientology course and feel they can handle life better.

- They do the communication course and feel they can communicate better

I am not an expert on scientology.

Dianetics and Scientology, from what I have read, appears to be a system of psychological hypotheses with a method of treatment for some basic personality problems. In this it is by no means unique. Understanding human behavior and motivations is a common theme of human culture for several centuries at least (if not the entire history of mankind). Attempting to cure ones self or others of mental quirks or "disorders", and wondering why various motivations and behaviors appear is surely a universal human experience.

Ancient religions contain some rudimentary level of psychological theory and hypotheses regarding the origins of various types of human behaviors. Unwanted motivations or thoughts may be seen as intrusive on the self, and thus appear to be the actions of separate beings. The motivations for particular unapproved behaviors may be seen to arise from demons, or the devil, for example, and may be cured by prayer to a particular deity, or in the extreme by exorcism. Jesus "cast out demons" as do various christian preachers even today.

Freud was trained in science in the late nineteenth century, and at the time he was working he was a pioneer in hypothesizing about the structure of personality, and the origin of its various quirks. His hypothetical constructs the id, ego and superego, are still common knowledge, although his analysis and exact methods of treatment are rarely employed today. Some followers who accepted his hypotheses as unalterable fact persisted in his methods for many decades, and weaved ever more elaborate, and contrived constructs to maintain the edifice in the face of conflicting new information.

Modern psychology, and cognitive psychology are the offspring of Freud's hypothesis, but bear little resemblance to it other than a few common themes.These common themes are also present in other hypothetical personality schemes, such as those of scientology. Humans have a "mind", consisting of our sensorium, thoughts, memories, emotions, motivations, and a "will" to act in ways consistent with their thoughts and motivations. The parts of these elements of which a person is conscious, "the conscious mind", appears to form a unified and independent "self". There are however many unconscious emotions, motivations, un-recalled memories, and sensations which do not appear in the "self". The unconscious elements have a profound effect on the conscious "self" and its behavior. The feelings, motivations and actions arising from the unconscious elements may appear so intrusive and foreign to the self that they must be explained away as separate personalities, or even as separate beings (possessions).

That this is the state of human existence is not really controversial, only the explanations (the hypotheses) are in conflict. Because the hypothetical explanations of these common experiences popularized by Freud were of a scientific tradition, they were malleable and have been altered over time and discarded as the failed hypotheses that they are.

The modern scientific construct of a human person is that of a primate, with a brain sub-serving all of these various functions of the psyche. In fact the understanding of the brain and its anatomy, neurochemistry and neurophysiology explains all these phenomena very well. The human brain has various sensory modalities, with both unconscious and conscious levels. It has a variety of memory types, working, short term, and long term episodic memory. It has emotional centers which underlie the feelings of happiness, sadness, anger, frustration, rage, and bliss. It has biological imperative motivational states (hunger, thirst, elimination, and libido) which drive behaviors to appropriate goals. It has a small area of cerebral cortex responsible for coordinating actions, planning, and initiating communication(the central executive). It has areas devoted to coordinated movement and the production of speech. In this modern model all of the activities of the psyche are understood as functions of the brain.

The definition of what motivations, feelings or behaviors are normal and which need "treatment" changes quite a bit from this perspective. Homosexuality and transsexualism change from aberrant and curable personality defects (psychoanaylsis) to natural behavior variations which will not be, and should not be "cured", for example.

So, as you say, that there are unconscious memories and motivations is not at issue. The failure of scientology is that its hypotheses regarding the origins of such unconscious elements and their influence on behaviors were never investigated, and they are not consistent with current massive body of literature regarding function of the human brain. At the time dianetics was devised we knew virtually nothing about the function of the brain. The Nobel prize in physiology for understanding the action potential was awarded in 1963, and the rudimentary understanding of synaptic function was the subject of the prize in 1970!

The fact that the method of auditing leads to some limited success, is not a verification that the hypotheses are correct. Freudian psychoanalysis also has a record of success, as does exorcism of demons by priests.
Being made aware that unconscious motivations exist and spending time investigating what those motivations might be is an enlightening experience for all of us, regardless of the methods used. Apparently Hubbard refined his method to provide some level of success which was convincing to some people, but his explanations of how and WHY he achieved success remained un-investigated.

The report of individuals that they "feel better", or that "chronic pain is reduced" by any given treatment are not sufficient to establish the method used as successful. Medicine went nowhere for centuries using this model. It is the basis of "success" in homeopathy, herbal cures, and acupuncture. Humans are extremely suggestible, and even organic symptoms like pain are subject to suggestion and placebo effects. Modern medicine relies on the double blind randomized controlled trial as the gold standard to establish efficacy because other methods have proven fallible. Even single blinding leads to spurious results. Subjects pick up on nonverbal and unconsciously transmitted cues from experimenters as to whether they are receiving placebo or treatment, and outcomes are accordingly skewed.

Furthermore, a method which relies on the galvanic skin response is bound to be unreliable, because the galvanic skin response is notoriously capricious, inconsistent and unreliable. The fact that it works "some times" is not verification that it provides consistent or reliable results.

If Hubbard were a scientist (like Hodgkin and Huxley), he would have published his findings regarding the success of auditing in a peer reviewed scientific journal, with detailed descriptions of his apparatus, the questions he used, and case reports of his successes. He would have encouraged others to attempt to replicate his findings, and modified his hypotheses when duplications and replications failed, or turned up new findings.

Instead, he published a book (which made him money), kept the methods secret, and collected money from his experimental subjects. These are the actions of a charlatan, not a scientist.

Instead of open publication and peer review, and modification with further findings, he kept his "hypotheses" secret, told only to advanced initiates, and forbid open discussion with those outside his influence. This is pseudoscience, not science.
 
There are however many unconscious emotions, motivations, un-recalled memories, and sensations which do not appear in the "self". The unconscious elements have a profound effect on the conscious "self" and its behavior. The feelings, motivations and actions arising from the unconscious elements may appear so intrusive and foreign to the self that they must be explained away as separate personalities, or even as separate beings (possessions).

[ . . . ]

The modern scientific construct of a human person is that of a primate, with a brain sub-serving all of these various functions of the psyche. In fact the understanding of the brain and its anatomy, neurochemistry and neurophysiology explains all these phenomena very well.

I feel like I should ask questions here, but I'm not sure what to ask.

I think I'll go with

1. What place to un-recalled memories have in modern psychology? What effect is it believed they have on people? How do we know what we know? If the effect is ever negative how is it treated?

2. I have similar questions for the unconscious in general, just a general request for how it usually works, what effect it has and how we know what we know, to whatever degree it's possible to keep your answers within the scope of a forum post with a few linked articles.

The failure of scientology is that its hypotheses regarding the origins of such unconscious elements and their influence on behaviors were never investigated, and they are not consistent with current massive body of literature regarding function of the human brain.

3. Would you be able to list specific points of contention where the two mindsets rub against each other? What do we know now that leaves the reactive mind dated if not discredited? (Other than the different views on homosexuality? (On that particular topic, I can't at the moment think of another behavior Hubbard calls aberrant that reeks of 1950s prejudice).

I have a song that puts my thoughts about Scientology to lyrics, and near the end it says "Humanity's discoveries updated through peer review; studies anew".

It's a part of the song I'm slightly concerned about because if I were asked to cite such new discoveries I'm not sure what exactly I'd list, other than the general fact that human behavior is explained in a more evolutionary and neurological context rather than traumatic memories. What would be the best response to someone asking about the line "studies anew"? Would it just be what you've already said here?

At the time dianetics was devised we knew virtually nothing about the function of the brain. The Nobel prize in physiology for understanding the action potential was awarded in 1963, and the rudimentary understanding of synaptic function was the subject of the prize in 1970!

Do these studies have significance to things the reactive mind is supposed to explain? (Things people seek therapy/treatment/rehabilitation of themselves or others for)
 
Do these studies have significance to things the reactive mind is supposed to explain? (Things people seek therapy/treatment/rehabilitation of themselves or others for)
I'll answer this last question first, as it is the easiest, and get to the others later when I am not on handheld device.

You are asking whether the Nobel awarded science outlining the basis for the action potential and synaptic physiology relates to cognitive therapy issues? Obviously not directly.

My point was simply that in the 1950s no one had any idea how the brain actually worked. Actual scientists were just working out the most fundamental aspects of neural signaling in the simplest possible systems.

Given the complete absence of knowledge of even basic cell functions in the brain at that time and before, anyone (say, Freud or Hubbarb, etc.) was free to speculate, make up cognitive constructs, hypothesize their interactions, and work out practical strategies for treatment of perceived flaws, without any ability to confirm whether their hypothetical schemes were correct, or even whether what they wanted to treat needed treatment in the first place.

Such hypothetical schemes devised in the absence of confirmatory facts are a place to start, but without continuous work to confirm where they are correct, and to revise what turns out to be wrong they are doomed to fail. Thus, Freud's constructs are well known, but no longer considered valid by main stream science. He was was a pioneer, but his map of the territory doesn't actually conform to reality.

Anything the "reactive mind" explains is found in the brain. It may be a useful term for understanding at a certain level. As I said, however, the fact that people report subjective improvement after an unblinded treatment is not surprising, nor does it confirm that the treatment method has actually done anything at all, other than suggest to the subject that they should feel better afterwards.
 
I don't really care about Hubbard one way or the other; only the body of ideas and what followers claim about it, and how those claims themselves fail against reality.

Scientology is full of people who feel that the things Hubbard said were insightful, helpful and workable from their own experience, so it doesn't really matter whether critics have a quote where he says he's just doing it for the money. You might as well take any invention and trot out a quote where the inventor says he just invented it for the money. It's meaningless. It's not the same as the inventor saying he believes his invention does not work.

Even Lawrence Wright, the writer of Going Clear, believes Hubbard truly believed in his product, based on all the time he spent writing more "tech" after he'd already made a ton of money. In the Going Clear documentary one of his former auditors relays a story of how Hubbard wanted him to build a machine that would electrocute him to death to get rid of the "body thetans" he believed was attached to him.

The idea that he didn't believe in Scientology is not a fact; it's something that sounds plausible to those who never believed in the first place and are willing to close the case based on a single quote without knowing anything else about the subject. There's no damning proof that would convince believers and it wouldn't even matter to those grateful to Scientology if there were.

Technically, it doesn't matter to believers whether or not it's a science either, I just enjoy that angle of attack.
 
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I don't really care about Hubbard one way or the other

Well you've changed this to an attack on his person, which is not true.

It is fiction. By a fiction novelist. So there can be no question about whether it is science. To pretend a need to go further is, lol, unreasonable.

Scientology is full of people who feel that the things Hubbard said were insightful, helpful and workable from their own experience,

So? My mother-in-law puts a curled-up hair snippet on our sons' foreheads when they are sick, and she swears it cures them.

Feelings are not science.


The idea that he didn't believe in Scientology is not a fact; it's something that sounds plausible to those who never believed in the first place and are willing to close the case based on a single quote

For saying it doesn't matter, you put a lot of effort in to arguing against it with sophistry.

He acted exactly like someone who didn't believe, the over-arching fraud scheme is so painfully apparent and the corresponding psychology so fascinating. France convicted him of fraud in absentia.

It is a loooooong, ghastly road with Mr. Hubbard, from his bizarre made-up "attack" in the navy to his paranoia and extremely nasty antisocial conduct, from the top-down in his organization. Psychological abuse and manipulation - boy, the more of his history you know of the more stark it becomes how much of a con man he was - totally without scruples.

You can say it doesn't matter. That by accident he could be the greatest scientist who ever lived. My dog might be the greatest scientist who ever lived too. We should follow him around and try to make sense of all his movements just in case it could give us a perpetual motion machine.
 

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