General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[JimRizoli]

On the contrary, every denialist assertion has been thoroughly demolished here with well grounded historical references.

Really...then explain this....

How can HoloHuxsters still lie about the gas chambers when this not so well published information happened to come into the picture?
I'm sure you will have a HoloHuxster answer as you seem to do with all your other answers that offer NO proof of anything you say.
You are the gatekeepers here to stop all intelligent debate....

The 1972 Vienna Auschwitz Trial. Between January 18 and March 10, 1972, two architects responsible for the design and construction of the crematoria in Auschwitz-Birkenau, Walter Dejaco and Fritz Ertl, were put on trial in Vienna, Austria.'' During the trial, an expert report on the possible interpretation of the blueprints of the alleged gas chambers of the Auschwitz and Birkenau crematoria was presented to the court. The report concluded that the rooms in question could not have been gas chambers, nor could they have been converted into gas chambers. Thanks to this first methodologically sound expert report on Auschwitz, the defendants were acquitted.

Jim Rizoli
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV

 

[JimRizoli]

I'm looking for MASS killing pics so far you haven't presented what I asked for. You present a pitiful scenario of what a few bodies here and there....LOL
Again the YOU HoloHuxsters present your 6 million lies of people being killed in fake gas chambers with bug spray....Pretty funny.
And the Natzweiler link proves what? Not MASS killings....

JR

 

[LemmyCaution]

I'm looking for MASS killing pics so far you haven't presented what I asked for. You present a pitiful scenario of what a few bodies here and there....LOL
Again the YOU HoloHuxsters present your 6 million lies of people being killed in fake gas chambers with bug spray....Pretty funny.
And the Natzweiler link proves what? Not MASS killings....

JR

Again, I take it that you are not capable of answering what you were asked about Babi Yar, Ponary, and Liepaja.

As to the Liepaja photo, you seem oblivious to what constitutes mass murder, you seem nearly blind - which I can empathize with but this makes you a poor judge of photos of killing sites, and you seem unable to understand what the point in time captured in the image I posted shows.

 

[Dash80]

Really...then explain this....

How can HoloHuxsters still lie about the gas chambers when this not so well published information happened to come into the picture?
I'm sure you will have a HoloHuxster answer as you seem to do with all your other answers that offer NO proof of anything you say.
You are the gatekeepers here to stop all intelligent debate....

The 1972 Vienna Auschwitz Trial. Between January 18 and March 10, 1972, two architects responsible for the design and construction of the crematoria in Auschwitz-Birkenau, Walter Dejaco and Fritz Ertl, were put on trial in Vienna, Austria.'' During the trial, an expert report on the possible interpretation of the blueprints of the alleged gas chambers of the Auschwitz and Birkenau crematoria was presented to the court. The report concluded that the rooms in question could not have been gas chambers, nor could they have been converted into gas chambers. Thanks to this first methodologically sound expert report on Auschwitz, the defendants were acquitted.

Jim Rizoli
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV

Funny how the only references I can find to such an apparently shocking conclusion about the impossibility of the gas chambers... are denier sites.

Meanwhile, this article explains why the two architects were aquitted:
http://www.viennareview.net/news/special-report/austria-on-trial

I'm looking for MASS killing pics so far you haven't presented what I asked for. You present a pitiful scenario of what a few bodies here and there....LOL
Again the YOU HoloHuxsters present your 6 million lies of people being killed in fake gas chambers with bug spray....Pretty funny.
And the Natzweiler link proves what? Not MASS killings....

JR

Glad you find this all so hilarious. The evidence from Natzweiler is just one small link in a very long chain of evidence.

Maybe to avoid making even more of an arse of yourself, you should start by actually reading something instead of scoffing, laughing and making ignorant remarks.

How about beginning with the T4 Euthanasia Program, which became something of an open secret in Germany... and had a number of public protests against it.

 

[Blue Mountain]

JimRizoli, HDenier, and DianeKayKing:

I'd like to point out this thread's title:

General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

This tread has two previous parts:

• General Holocaust Denial Discussion Thread (10,242 posts over 16 months)
• General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II (7,029 posts over 27 months)

If you're interested in doing serious research instead of spouting a bunch of anti-Semitic rhetoric, read through THOSE threads first, then come back with your objections.

 

[LeoMajor]

I'm looking for MASS killing pics so far you haven't presented what I asked for. You present a pitiful scenario of what a few bodies here and there....LOL
Again the YOU HoloHuxsters present your 6 million lies of people being killed in fake gas chambers with bug spray....Pretty funny.
And the Natzweiler link proves what? Not MASS killings....

JR

I directed you to photos of bodies that had been gassed. You have yet to do so. What are you hiding from?

 

[LeoMajor]

Both Ertl and Dejaco admitted to gassings. Ertl himself stated to the court that any room could be converted into a gas chamber, even the very courtroom he was standing in. Please do some research and stop hiding behind your hollow rhetoric.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Both Ertl and Dejaco admitted to gassings. Ertl himself stated to the court that any room could be converted into a gas chamber, even the very courtroom he was standing in. Please do some research and stop hiding behind your hollow rhetoric.

Obviously Zionist disinformation agents.

 

[A'isha]

Meanwhile, this article explains why the two architects were aquitted:
http://www.viennareview.net/news/special-report/austria-on-trial

See also this.

The defense of Dejaco and Ertl was not that the crematoria they designed were not crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz, but that they had no idea the crematoria they designed were to be used for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz, and so were innocently misled by the Nazis into designing crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz without their knowledge. Ertl himself testified that "Without my knowing it, they [the gas chambers] were built by members of the Kommandant's staff in collusion with the Political Department. They did this in secret by excluding all members of the Construction Directorate at that time."

And the jury very specifically did not conclude "that the rooms in question could not have been gas chambers, nor could they have been converted into gas chambers", but instead that "The majority rejection [of the charges] is based in essence on the report of the expert witness (Diploma Engineer Gerhard E. J. Dubin), according to which no conclusions about gassing installations can be made from the plans." When specifically asked by a defense attormey, "Can one read from the plans lying here before us that gassing installations were to be installed in these objects?", Dubin declared "For construction people that is not possible without other knowledge. From these plans, for me, that cannot be determined."

In other words, the jury believed the defense's assertion that the crematoria plans did not describe the purpose for which the crematoria were intended to be used (to dispose of mass murder victims) because the architects were misled by the Nazis into designing crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz without their knowledge, not that the plans themselves proved the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz impossible (and, indeed, the "expert witness" specifically testified otherwise).

This was despite the testimony of other engineers and prisoners at Auschwitz, and Dubin's own admission on the stand that he could not understand some of the features listed on the plans (particularly the ventilation system of the gas chambers, to which he confessed "What purpose they served, I cannot say. A thermodynamics expert must be asked." When the prosecution asked one such expert, Dr. Engineer Roman Dawidowski, a professor of mechanical engineering and thermodynamics, he pointed out that the massively overbuilt ventilation system in question made it obvious that the buildings served no other purpose than gassing).

EDIT: Also, as LeoMajor says, Ertl and Dejaco both admitted that they knew full what their crematoria were being used for at Auschwitz, and that this was its intended purpose. They just denied that they knew that at the time they designed the Kremas.

 

[HDenier]

I don't think we're the ones showing ignorance.

Question to the new bunch of deniers... How many books and documents have you actually read on the Holocaust?

I have in the last 20 years spent some good money on quite a few holocaust books and after these years of looking at these books my conclusion is that these people have done a great job duping you the public. It's got to the point that "I get it" when it comes to seeing these rumors, lies and distortions of history, I refuse to get to much involved into it anymore with new books because like I said "I get it". I see the pattern of lies that have been part of everyone's testimony and these shysters keep on parroting. So many contradictions that people should have put a stop to but didn't, thus we have the holocaust stories. The bizarre, the impossible, the nonsense that violates forensics and scientific fact. MANY lies that have resulted in some being put to death for the Shrunken heads, now disappeared somewhere,The soap lies, the Lampshades lies ALL brought to us by the American War propaganda departments. These lies are even admitted by the people at the holocaust museums. Case in point

The Lampshade lies.

A book called "The Lampshade, A Holocaust Detective Story From Buchenwald to New Orleans" by Marc Jacobson.

This bizarre story that probably most of you crazies probably believe had to do with the rumor that Jewish skin was made into lampshades.

This guy writing this book of nonsense tried taken his Lampshade story to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, USHMM. On page 113 on this story of lunacy fit for most of you skeptic believers in nonsense and gullibility, a former head of collections, a Miss Diane Saltzman said the story was a "MYTH'" and "like the soaps" UNPROVEN".

So this is just the beginning of lies and nonsense that we get out of this supposed holocaust narrative that right from the getgo is built on LIES.

This is the FOUNDATION people of your holocaust BS. The famous "Nazi" hunter Wiesenthal concluded the soap story "WASN'T SO" pp 321

So there you have it. These stories have been rewritten and told over and over in tons of holocauster victims books and they are "MYTHS" and WASN'T SO'S". And you people want me to have faith in the other things these liars have said?, no thanks. In a real court of honesty and LAW these peoples testimonies would be thrown out. That is your foundation for you holocaust nonsense, Rumor, Myth, and Lies. or as my favorite quote says:

“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”
–Samuel Gringauz, “Jewish Social Studies” (New York), January 1950,
Vol. 12, p. 65

 

[LemmyCaution]

You have a few pictures of some dead bodies so what does that prove?
A mass grave is thousands of bodies....you might want to define Mass grave because what your showing me is not it.

Jim, a minor point - because the evidence has it that over 2,700 Jews were shot into the mass graves shown in the Liepaja photos. But you assert that the definition of mass grave is "thousands of bodies."

Earlier, I mentioned that you seem unaware of what a mass grave is. You ignored this comment. So that we are using language the same way and in alignment with recent scholarship, here is a link to Kirsten Juhl, The Contribution by (Forensic) Archaeologists to Human Rights Investigations of Mass Graves (2005).

In this paper, the author, Kirsten Juhl, summarizes work done by Erin Jessee, who, she writes defined mass grave as follows:

a mass grave being any location containing two or more tightly-packed, indiscriminately or disrespectfully placed bodies representing victims who have died as a result of extra-judicial, summary or arbitrary executions, not including military combatants, who have died as a result of arm ed confrontations.

According to Juhl, Jessee's typology extends to the archaeological work in this field and includes

the archaeological evidence to be associated with the different types" of mass graves:

Mass grave-related sites: surface execution sites; grave execution sites; temporary surface deposition sites; and permanent surface deposition sites.

Inhumation sites: primary inhumation sites (primary mass graves) sometimes being simultaneously also a grave execution site, secondary inhumation sites (secondary mass graves), multiple deposit interment sites (a grave containing a stratigraphic series of body masses separated by soil and deposited over a period of time), and looted inhumation sites (a grave from which human remains have been removed). Multiple deposit interment sites may include both primary and secondary inhumation sites.

What you are looking at in the Liepaja photos I showed you is, according to this definition, a primary inhumation site which was also a grave execution site in the process of being filled with the corpses of victims, making the photos rare, as the German criminals and their allies were prohibited by various orders from keeping a photographic record of their murders.

In a more recent (2013) paper, Jonas Holm Jæger reviewed definitions of mass grave and proposed a slightly different definition, suggesting three rather than two bodies as the minimum:

To qualify as a mass grave, the grave must contain a minimum of three individuals. Thus distinguishing the mass grave from the double grave or joint grave. The double grave can appear in both forensic and non-forensic contexts of course, but the word,
“mass” suggests a higher number of individuals.

All bodies should be placed in a dug out or existing cavity (i.e. a well, a cave et cetera) or on the surface and covered with dirt or similar. If a mass grave is closed and a new one made on top of the first these would qualify as two separate mass graves. This makes it possible to have several mass graves at the same spot, placed on top of each other.

The contents of the mass grave are characterized by an unorganized or chaotic placement of the bodies as a result of them having been thrown or knocked down in the grave. This underlines the lack of respect and compassion for the dead by the people responsible for the killings, which again underlines the nature of mass graves: a place to store away the bodies of what those responsible only see as vermin or pests. Not human beings. The chaos of the mass grave contrasts the communal burials in which the bodies are placed systematically and with apparent respect for the dead. . . .

In the Wiley Encyclopedia of Forensic Science (2009), the entry on "mass grave investigation" by Melissa O'Connor uses a minimum of 4 corpses - but is otherwise similar to the formulations of Juhl, Jessee, and Jæger.

Would you be so kind as to share with members of this discussion board the scholarly source for the definition of mass grave you used in your earlier post?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I have in the last 20 years spent some good money on quite a few holocaust books and after these years of looking at these books my conclusion is that these people have done a great job duping you the public. It's got to the point that "I get it" when it comes to seeing these rumors, lies and distortions of history, I refuse to get to much involved into it anymore with new books because like I said "I get it". I see the pattern of lies that have been part of everyone's testimony and these shysters keep on parroting. So many contradictions that people should have put a stop to but didn't, thus we have the holocaust stories. The bizarre, the impossible, the nonsense that violates forensics and scientific fact. MANY lies that have resulted in some being put to death for the Shrunken heads, now disappeared somewhere,The soap lies, the Lampshades lies ALL brought to us by the American War propaganda departments. These lies are even admitted by the people at the holocaust museums. Case in point

The Lampshade lies.

A book called "The Lampshade, A Holocaust Detective Story From Buchenwald to New Orleans" by Marc Jacobson.

This bizarre story that probably most of you crazies probably believe had to do with the rumor that Jewish skin was made into lampshades.

This guy writing this book of nonsense tried taken his Lampshade story to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, USHMM. On page 113 on this story of lunacy fit for most of you skeptic believers in nonsense and gullibility, a former head of collections, a Miss Diane Saltzman said the story was a "MYTH'" and "like the soaps" UNPROVEN".

So this is just the beginning of lies and nonsense that we get out of this supposed holocaust narrative that right from the getgo is built on LIES.

This is the FOUNDATION people of your holocaust BS. The famous "Nazi" hunter Wiesenthal concluded the soap story "WASN'T SO" pp 321

So there you have it. These stories have been rewritten and told over and over in tons of holocauster victims books and they are "MYTHS" and WASN'T SO'S". And you people want me to have faith in the other things these liars have said?, no thanks. In a real court of honesty and LAW these peoples testimonies would be thrown out. That is your foundation for you holocaust nonsense, Rumor, Myth, and Lies. or as my favorite quote says:

“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”
–Samuel Gringauz, “Jewish Social Studies” (New York), January 1950,
Vol. 12, p. 65

Clearly you have not read scholarship of the Final Solution if you imagine that it has anything to do with promotion of myths about lampshades and soap. In fact, some recent scholarship (Joachim Neander) has dealt with - not the promotion of soap legends - but the analysis of why soap legends arose and persisted. Mark Jacobson's book is not a work of scholarship but a popular feature book, with which scholars generally disagree, described as a nonfiction mystery! Jacobson is a journalist and screenwriter. The question here is about scholarship of the Final Solution, not popular journalistic accounts. What are the publication dates of the most recent 5 scholarly books you've read and what were they?

 

[HDenier]

Clearly you have not read scholarship of the Final Solution if you imagine that it has anything to do with promotion of myths about lampshades and soap. In fact, some recent scholarship (Joachim Neander) has dealt with - not the promotion of soap legends - but the analysis of why soap legends arose and persisted. Mark Jacobson's book is not a work of scholarship but a popular feature book, with which scholars generally disagree, described as a nonfiction mystery! Jacobson is a journalist and screenwriter. The question here is about scholarship of the Final Solution, not popular journalistic accounts. What are the publication dates of the most recent 5 scholarly books you've read and what were they?

Imagine using the term "scholarship and the final solution" by way of books on the holocaust narrative. Too funny...
They can't even get the numbers right, the who what why and where and you use that term that changes yearly and daily. Scholarship, toooo funny......

How can any of these books be any kind of scholarship if they persist to regurgitate the same lies? The books that I look to with respect are the revisionist books that expose these liars at the VHO dot org website.

I'll tell you what, what books do you recommend, I might have them, next to my books on the tooth fairy and Gnomes....

My quoting that Lampshade book showed not the stupid story of the Lampshade but the quotes from those who said it was nonsense. Are we in agreement that the shrunken heads, the soap stories are bunk? Maybe you can quote one of your "scholarly books"...
I still am laughing at that wording..."scholarship and the final solution"...

The only FINAL SOLUTION was getting the Jews OUT of Germany to go other places. When I hear someone use that term then I know they no very little about Germany, Hitler, Gas chambers, fumigation chambers, concentration camps and everything else and belong to the Holocauster cult.....

 

[Tomtomkent]

Sorry... But which is it? Are scholarly books not scholarly I they all repeat the same information? Or are they not scholarly because they have differing "wrong" information?

 

[HDenier]

"Scholarly books" that repeat the same lies are not "scholarly" and believe me, tons exist from the holocauxters....

LemmyCaution mentioned an article on mass graves. Can you show me MASS GRAVES at Auschwitz? Maybe even at Treblinka? It would be nice to see these mass graves considering the hundreds of thousands of people you all claimed were murdered. If the latest figures by the Popes visit are correct then the deaths at Auschwitz are down from the 1986 figure of 4 million to 1 million. One million would leave lets say just in teeth, 24,000,000 teeth. Any idea where those teeth are? Did the tooth fairy take them? At Triblinka the same, but maybe a little less than a million, so we are talking about 20,000,000 teeth, where are they? Miss Corliss lady archeologist found one sharks tooth in all of her diggings at Treblinka. At 850,000 murders you would think there would be at least ONE human tooth...lol.....Eric Hunt in his Treblinka video exposed the many many falsehoods of that Treblinka propaganda video. He exposed ALL the nonsense. Of course who here would even watch it, they are looking for those teeth. He when you get a chance go find the video ONETHIRDTHEHOLOCAUST. This should keep you busy for a while, maybe by them you'll all come to you holohax senses.....

 

[Tomtomkent]

What you seem to be describing is the process of offering differing conclusions based upon continuing analysis of information.

Far from making these unscholarly it means they are open to review.

Your determination to demand absolutes is less scholarly.

Perhaps, instead of demanding a tooth, you should find out of there was any other evidence found, on which the concensus narrative is built, and if there is a reason teeth might have been elsewhere?

I'll give you a hint. These are discussed in the books you refuse to read.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Actually they haven't been discovered, these so-called mass graves. There have been alleged sites where a couple of bones or teeth were found, but NOTHING mass.

Diane? You were already informed, on the Skeptic Society forum, that the forensic investigation into Treblinka discovered the large mass graves. Are you pretending to forget again?

1) Please explain what you think the largest mass grave at Treblinka II was used for, (26m long, 17m wide and at least four metres deep)

2) What about the other 10 mass graves at Treblinka II?

3) Where do you claim the 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II (confirmed by forensics) came from?

Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...urvey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/

 

[erwinl]

"Scholarly books" that repeat the same lies are not "scholarly" and believe me, tons exist from the holocauxters....

LemmyCaution mentioned an article on mass graves. Can you show me MASS GRAVES at Auschwitz? Maybe even at Treblinka? It would be nice to see these mass graves considering the hundreds of thousands of people you all claimed were murdered. If the latest figures by the Popes visit are correct then the deaths at Auschwitz are down from the 1986 figure of 4 million to 1 million. One million would leave lets say just in teeth, 24,000,000 teeth. Any idea where those teeth are? Did the tooth fairy take them? At Triblinka the same, but maybe a little less than a million, so we are talking about 20,000,000 teeth, where are they? Miss Corliss lady archeologist found one sharks tooth in all of her diggings at Treblinka. At 850,000 murders you would think there would be at least ONE human tooth...lol.....Eric Hunt in his Treblinka video exposed the many many falsehoods of that Treblinka propaganda video. He exposed ALL the nonsense. Of course who here would even watch it, they are looking for those teeth. He when you get a chance go find the video ONETHIRDTHEHOLOCAUST. This should keep you busy for a while, maybe by them you'll all come to you holohax senses.....

Highlighted.

I'm certain some people indeed feel this way.

 

[Dash80]

I have in the last 20 years spent some good money on quite a few holocaust books and after these years of looking at these books my conclusion is that these people have done a great job duping you the public. It's got to the point that "I get it" when it comes to seeing these rumors, lies and distortions of history, I refuse to get to much involved into it anymore with new books because like I said "I get it". I see the pattern of lies that have been part of everyone's testimony and these shysters keep on parroting. So many contradictions that people should have put a stop to but didn't, thus we have the holocaust stories. The bizarre, the impossible, the nonsense that violates forensics and scientific fact. MANY lies that have resulted in some being put to death for the Shrunken heads, now disappeared somewhere,The soap lies, the Lampshades lies ALL brought to us by the American War propaganda departments. These lies are even admitted by the people at the holocaust museums. Case in point

The Lampshade lies.

A book called "The Lampshade, A Holocaust Detective Story From Buchenwald to New Orleans" by Marc Jacobson.

This bizarre story that probably most of you crazies probably believe had to do with the rumor that Jewish skin was made into lampshades.

This guy writing this book of nonsense tried taken his Lampshade story to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, USHMM. On page 113 on this story of lunacy fit for most of you skeptic believers in nonsense and gullibility, a former head of collections, a Miss Diane Saltzman said the story was a "MYTH'" and "like the soaps" UNPROVEN".

So this is just the beginning of lies and nonsense that we get out of this supposed holocaust narrative that right from the getgo is built on LIES.

This is the FOUNDATION people of your holocaust BS. The famous "Nazi" hunter Wiesenthal concluded the soap story "WASN'T SO" pp 321

So there you have it. These stories have been rewritten and told over and over in tons of holocauster victims books and they are "MYTHS" and WASN'T SO'S". And you people want me to have faith in the other things these liars have said?, no thanks. In a real court of honesty and LAW these peoples testimonies would be thrown out. That is your foundation for you holocaust nonsense, Rumor, Myth, and Lies. or as my favorite quote says:

“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”
–Samuel Gringauz, “Jewish Social Studies” (New York), January 1950,
Vol. 12, p. 65

I'd like to know which books you've supposedly read... because the vast majority of the ones I've read have nothing to do with lampshades or soap.

Which denier tropes are you going to pull out next? Auschwitz swimming pool, Treblinka zoo?

The ONE book you mention has been refuted by the very people you are claiming promote the lampshade stories in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lampshade:_A_Holocaust_Detective_Story_from_Buchenwald_to_New_Orleans

 

[Nick Terry]

I have in the last 20 years spent some good money on quite a few holocaust books

Several people have asked you which books you've read, and you've still not answered.