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Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The translation (google) is:

"Conclusion: By comparisons performed by overlapping / combination is evident that the traces examined, marked with the letter "A", correspond with the drawing (model and size) of the sole of the shoe bearing the mark "NIKE" object of comparison.
This is also demonstrated by some measurements on the images were ricavali the following data (all.ti 13:14):
diameter of the circular track on picna of about 36 mm floor. - The circular element diameter of about 35 mm. of the shoe sole;
size of the empty spaces. measured in three locations, between the circular marks left on approximately 5 mrn floor. - Size of the corresponding spaces of the sole of about 6 m.
size between the extremes of the circular marks left on the floor of cim 87 mm. - Size between the opposing hatched areas of the sole of about 86 mm ..
The minor differences between the two measurements are likely to be determined by the mechanical action of fluid substance.
These minutes will be reread confirmed and signed."


The only corresponding measurements I could find are as follows:

Men's standard shoe sizes:

Size Measurements Joint width/ Joint Circumference/Instep Circumference Toe box space
5 3(11/16)” 9(1/4)” - 9(3/4)” 9(1/4)” - 9(3/4)” 35mm
94mm 236mm - 246mm 234mm - 244mm

6 3(3/4)” 9(1/2)” - 10” (9/12)” - 10” 36mm
95mm 242mm - 252mm 240mm - 250mm


Ladies Narrow lowline shoe sizes:


Size Measurements Joint width/ Joint Circumference/Instep Circumference Toe Box Space

5 3(5/16)” 8(3/4)” - 9(1/4)” 8(3/8)” - 8(7/8)” 35mm
85mm 224mm - 234mm 212mm - 227mm

6 3(7/16)” 9” - 9(1/2)” 8(5/8)” - 9(1/8)” 36mm
87mm 230mm - 240mm 220mm - 232mm



These parameters seem to suggest a smaller foot size, rather than Rudy's imputed 'size 46':


Men's standard lowline sizes:

Size Measurement Joint width/ Joint Circumference/Instep Circumference Toe Box Space

11 4(1/4)” 10(3/4)” - 11(1/4)” 10(3/4)” - 11(1/4)” 41mm
108mm 275mm - 285mm 273mm - 283mm
12 4(3/8)” 11” - 11(1/2)” 11” - 11(1/2)” 42mm
112mm 282mm - 292mm 280mm - 290mm


I assume the report is referring to the above circumferences.
No, it has nothing to do with the size of the shoe, well, not directly.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...e-Ippolito-Manieri-shoeprints-complete.pdf#16

The fist point is about the circle in the center of the pattern the trace on the floor is about 36 mm in diameter, the circle on the sole of the shoe that allegedly made the print is about 35 mm in diameter.

The second point is about space between the printed "rings" on the floor. On the floor that empty "space" is about 5 mm, the space between the rings of the shoes that allegedly left those prints is about 6mm.

The third point is about maximum diameter of "the circles", about 87 mm on the floor and about 86 mm on the sole of the shoe that allegedly left those prints.

Ippolito and Manieri are telling us in effect that the shoe isn't a match and if one looks closer at the measurements they suggest that the shoe was too small to make those prints. The problem is that Ippolito and Manieri only had the photos to work with therefore the "circa" before each measurement. In other words, another example of GIGO taking place in this case.

Why do you think that Ippolito and Manieri tried to explain away the fact that they didn't have a match with:
"The minor differences between the two measurements are likely to be determined by the mechanical action of fluid substance."
...especially when they knew that they were working on inferior material? The description you are so fond of, when it comes to the defense experts comes to mind: "Paid shills." ;)
 
Stacy, do sort out your quote notation. It illustrates the chutzpah of the pair that, knowing they had an audience, put on a show of how they couldn't wait to recreate having sex over Mez' dead body.


You failed to answer my questions. Perhaps you forgot to do so being preoccupied imagining them not being able to "wait to recreate having sex over Mez' dead body." I'll post them again.

How did the store owner know what they were saying as he didn't speak English?

Who says "Let's have wild sex"?

This was nothing more than a shop keeper wanting to get his store and himself a few minutes of fame. Not to speak of the money he was paid.
 
You failed to answer my questions. Perhaps you forgot to do so being preoccupied imagining them not being able to "wait to recreate having sex over Mez' dead body." I'll post them again.

How did the store owner know what they were saying as he didn't speak English?

Who says "Let's have wild sex"?

This was nothing more than a shop keeper wanting to get his store and himself a few minutes of fame. Not to speak of the money he was paid.

Vixen complains that all this is being personalized around her, yet that begs a question.

Who does one address replies to other than the person claiming these highly sexualized scenarios? Of all the wild, nutty theories even the most vicious guilter has claimed over the years....

..... Vixen stands alone with the lurid claim that the pair had sex next to the victim's dead body.

It shows the way the poster's mind works, inventing these wild sexualized theories no one else is claiming.
 
I see, so Mez was forced onto her knees and restrained from defending herself by Rudy whilst her murderer (Massei ruled it was Amanda) thrust a kitchen knife into her neck three times.

Does it remind you of what those low lives did to the high life priest in Normandy a few days ago?

Then there was Leslie Van Houten, Charles Manson disciple, who held down Rosemary LaBianco, whilst another lowlife stabbed her to death. She then stabbed a dead body.

She has been denied parole 20 times now, whilst Mez' killers roam the streets free, because a bunch of bleeding hearts preferred the lowlife to the victim.

Yes, the crime was an abomination to all right thinking people, but LondonJohn thinks its a 'bloody disgrace' I express astonishment at Amanda's disgusting sexual antics in the Questura - sitting on Raff's lap and dry humping him - and in the lingerie shop with their 'wild sex' proclamation for all to hear and deliberate purchase of a provocative item of underwear.

Dear Reader, go figure which one of us is the 'disturbed and troubled individual'.


The disturbed and troubled individual is the one who invents wholesale a disgusting, lurid sexual fantasy of Knox and Sollecito "having sex over the dead body of Meredith Kercher".

Clear now?
 
None of the courts agree with you.

Except of course the only relevant court that actually analyzed the crime scene as it was and not as it was wished to be, the Hellmann court, which found the break-in compatible with Rudy's prior history of burglary and a lack of any evidence the break-in was staged.
 
Dear Reader, go figure which one of us is the 'disturbed and troubled individual'.


OK, I will do that, since you specifically asked.

It is you. You are the disturbed and troubled individual. Your delusions are really unsettling. Seek help.
 
You are right on R&B and Vinci, there were these two early reports on "The shoeprints"
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...Sollecito-shoe-matching-crime-scene-print.pdf
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...lice-Ippolito-Manieri-shoeprints-complete.pdf
with the first one by Mauro Capocci stating:

and the second one, by Ippolito and Manieri is getting into the details
matching it to Raffaele's shoes despite the differences and the fact that they only had the photos to work with, even offering an explaination why the print is compatible whith Raffaele's Nikes depite not being a match.

Two things are interesting:
1st: the documents confirm Raffaele's take in "Honor Bound":

2nd: Judge Matteini took that second run on the shoeprints as "confirmation" without question even with Ippolito and Manieri having only the photos to work with:

Thank you! It is as I remember (except for the names).

I figured one of the "M" posters would come through with the answer to my question (the other possibly being Machiavelli). You both refer to trial documents which I find hold the best answers.
 
Thank you! It is as I remember (except for the names).

I figured one of the "M" posters would come through with the answer to my question (the other possibly being Machiavelli). You both refer to trial documents which I find hold the best answers.


Of course one has to look at the testimony given by Rinaldi and Boemia in 2009 on the matter of these shoe prints in the hall in a very important context: by that time the prints had been conclusively shown to have been made by Nike Outbreak 2 trainers (as owned and worn by Guede), and that in fact they could not possibly have been made by Nike Air Force One trainers (as owned by Sollecito).

Had Boemia and/or Rinaldi stood before the Massei court and stated that the shoe prints could be matched with Sollecito's Air Force Ones, they would easily have been shot down in flames. There was no ambiguity about the provenance of those prints. So I don't believe Boemia or Rinaldi had any option BUT to agree that the prints matched Guede's trainer and not Sollecito's. However, the fact that they maintained throughout that the prints on the pillow case matched Knox's size 37 Asics, when it can easily be shown that the prints are in fact overlapping partial prints from Guede's Outbreak 2s, plus the manifestly incompetent, fundamentally unscientific and partisan way in which they "analysed" the bath mat partial print and the blobby foot prints in the hall, illustrates amply that they were neither qualified nor competent to conduct shoe print or foot print analysis.

And in fact it's been well established by now that, as of the technology available currently, it's almost always impossible to glean much information from foot print deposits - other than being able to exclude any suspect with feet around 20% bigger or smaller than the deposited print (assuming that neither the deposited print nor the suspect has unusual distinguishing characteristics such as an amputated toe or highly abnormal hammer toe). Shoe print evidence is potentially much more valuable and matchable. If a clear shoe print is left on a smooth surface with a decent medium (and blood is a pretty good medium), it can sometimes not only be possible to match the brand and approximate size of show, but also possible to identify a specific shoe on account of marks and wear patterns on the sole.
 
No, it has nothing to do with the size of the shoe, well, not directly.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...e-Ippolito-Manieri-shoeprints-complete.pdf#16

The fist point is about the circle in the center of the pattern the trace on the floor is about 36 mm in diameter, the circle on the sole of the shoe that allegedly made the print is about 35 mm in diameter.

The second point is about space between the printed "rings" on the floor. On the floor that empty "space" is about 5 mm, the space between the rings of the shoes that allegedly left those prints is about 6mm.

The third point is about maximum diameter of "the circles", about 87 mm on the floor and about 86 mm on the sole of the shoe that allegedly left those prints.

Ippolito and Manieri are telling us in effect that the shoe isn't a match and if one looks closer at the measurements they suggest that the shoe was too small to make those prints. The problem is that Ippolito and Manieri only had the photos to work with therefore the "circa" before each measurement. In other words, another example of GIGO taking place in this case.

Why do you think that Ippolito and Manieri tried to explain away the fact that they didn't have a match with:
"The minor differences between the two measurements are likely to be determined by the mechanical action of fluid substance."
...especially when they knew that they were working on inferior material? The description you are so fond of, when it comes to the defense experts comes to mind: "Paid shills." ;)


They were on the right track, because you can see the circle at the ball of the foot is the same size as that of the heel. Obviously, scale is everything. If the camera was just slightly out, it could account for the 1mm anomaly.

OTOH it's useful for determining which shoe would be incompatible. A size 46 would have been about 5mm larger (given the circles can only ever be as wide as the soles).
 
You failed to answer my questions. Perhaps you forgot to do so being preoccupied imagining them not being able to "wait to recreate having sex over Mez' dead body." I'll post them again.

How did the store owner know what they were saying as he didn't speak English?

Who says "Let's have wild sex"?

This was nothing more than a shop keeper wanting to get his store and himself a few minutes of fame. Not to speak of the money he was paid.

In his book Honor Bound Raff says:

After the day of the discovery of the body on 3 November...[...]...I made a joke in English, "Wow, you're going to look smoking hot in those".

Clearly something of that nature was said and the persons who were witness to it were shocked enough to report it to the press. Everybody else was devastated by Mez' death, but these two were on a high.

Remember, the cops had no idea who did it, at this stage.

Raff also says, about Amanda's behaviour:

The English girls said they were appalled by Amanda's behaviour and I admit, it made me feel a little uneasy, too...[...]...This was a public place...[...]...Days earlier, under very different circumstances, this quirky unrestrained behaviour had drawn me to her, but now it was embarrassing, and I can understand why Meredith's friends were put off.

So, not just my opinion.

Raff also says, page 29,

We looked like two abandoned waifs as we sat facing the street on a concrete step just above the road way. Amanda was not wearing nearly enough for the cold weather, just a thin sweater over her T-shirt and she started to shiver as I dialed the emergency number for the carabinieri.


Any idea what happened to Amanda's coat? Disposed of, by any chance? Or was the adrenaline rush she was experiencing, enough to keep her warm, even though they supposedly knew nothing about a body at this stage. Or maybe it was the energetic cleaning she was doing with her mop?
 
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Except of course the only relevant court that actually analyzed the crime scene as it was and not as it was wished to be, the Hellmann court, which found the break-in compatible with Rudy's prior history of burglary and a lack of any evidence the break-in was staged.

It's a pity Hellmann was eviscerated by the Supreme Court.
 
You omitted to mention Giobbi is a hard-nosed policeman. A most obnoxious fellow, I am sure, but you don't get to his rank as chief cop, without lots of footwork, exams and crime solving ability. He's seen it all, murders, suicides, rapes, car crashes; he is trained in good observation skills; he knows how wily, scheming and manipulative criminals are. Do you think he can't tell when some female suspect is 'coming on' to him?

..../QUOTE]

From VQA Giobbi's testimony before the Massei court, he is primarily an expert on cat behavior. In particular, he testified that the blood spot left on or slightly above the downstairs flat light switch resulted from a cat with a bloody ear jumping against the wall. The light switch was located well up the side of the wall. Giobbi and Stefanoni attributed all the other unusual blood stains in the downstairs flat to the cat, which is quite remarkable, since Stefanoni reported getting DNA samples from these blood stains to replicate in DNA testing (PCR, using an enzyme specific for humans and possibly closely related primates) that is specific for human DNA.

There was no report by Stefanoni of any specific human antibody test done on the blood stains that would scientifically establish that they were human or not. It's clear that the police and prosecution attributing the blood stains in the downstairs flat to a cat with a bleeding ear was another conclusion not supported by evidence that was part of their hasty misrepresentation of the evidence in this case.
 
Oh the Supreme Court decisions matter to you? Good, then you'll stop posting since they ended the charges against the students.

Vixen only makes reference to the Italian courts when it suits her PR agenda. The following is the **final**, definitive word of the Italian Supreme Court

Marasca-Bruno said:
10. The intrinsic contradictory nature of the evidence, emerging from the text of the appealed verdict, in essence undermines the connective tissue of the same, leading to its annulment.In fact, in the presence of a scenario marked by many contradictions, the referral judge should not have come to a verdict of guilt, but - as previously observed – should have reached a verdict of not guilty, given Article 530, section 2, Italian Code of Criminal Procedure.At this point only one matter remains to be resolved, regarding the type of
annulment - i.e., whether it should be decided with or without a new trial - which
depends, obviously, on the objective possibility of further investigation which could
unravel the perplexing aspects, and offer answers of certainty, perhaps through new
technical investigations.
The answer is certainly negative. In fact the biological traces on items of
investigative interest are of minuscule magnitude, and as such, incompatible with
amplification and, thus, destined not to give reliable, certain answers, whether in
terms of identity or in terms of compatibility.
The computers of Amanda Knox and Kercher, which might have been useful to
the investigation, were, incredibly, burned by the careless actions of the
investigators, causing a short circuit due probably to an erroneous power supply;
and they cannot give any more information, given that the damage is irreversible.​
You see - Marasca-Bruno made no rulings on any item within the corpus of evidence entered into the fray at the lower-court, evidentiary hearings. (This should put to rest ANY mention Vixen claims, "The Marasca-Bruno court found as factual that....."

What they ruled upon was that the Nencini court should not have convicted with what it had in front of it. Why?

(This case forces us to) reexamine the now-obsolete and dubiously credible notion of the judge as “peritus peritorum” [expert of experts]. Indeed, this old maxim expresses a cultural model that is no longer current, and is in fact decidedly anachronistic, at least to the extent that it expects to assign to the judge a real ability to master the flow of scientific knowledge that the parties pour into the proceeding; a more realistic formulation, by contrast, sees the judge as wholly oblivious to those contributions, which are the fruit of a scientific training that he or she does not, need not, and cannot possess.​

And after a full discussion on the relationship, in Italian law, of judicial truth to objective truth, Marasca/Bruno concludes with a blistering attack on the Nencini court for assigning weight to genetic "evidence" which did not meet the lowest standards of scientific proof.

Re-read Section 7 of the M/B report for a very full and nuanced rationale for why the Nencini verdict was junk; and....

...... therefore eviscerated!

9. The ascertained errores in iudicando [errors in judgment] and the logical inconsistencies pointed out invalidate the appealed verdict from the funditus [foundations], hence it deserves to be annulled.
The aforementioned reasons for annulling can be summarised in the inability to present an evidentiary framework that can really be considered suitable to support a pronouncement of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, as required by Article 533 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure in the text renewed by Article 5 of the law n. 46/2006.​
 
Vixen only makes reference to the Italian courts when it suits her PR agenda. The following is the **final**, definitive word of the Italian Supreme Court

You see - Marasca-Bruno made no rulings on any item within the corpus of evidence entered into the fray at the lower-court, evidentiary hearings. (This should put to rest ANY mention Vixen claims, "The Marasca-Bruno court found as factual that....."

What they ruled upon was that the Nencini court should not have convicted with what it had in front of it. Why?


And after a full discussion on the relationship, in Italian law, of judicial truth to objective truth, Marasca/Bruno concludes with a blistering attack on the Nencini court for assigning weight to genetic "evidence" which did not meet the lowest standards of scientific proof.

Re-read Section 7 of the M/B report for a very full and nuanced rationale for why the Nencini verdict was junk; and....

...... therefore eviscerated!



It shows how ignorant Bruno-Marasca are, as the DNA showed a definitive 15 alleles of Mez and the bra clasp a near full 18 of Raff. That is much more than is required in all advanced jurisdictions (UK=11 alleles is legally enough to establish ID for sure.).
 
It shows how ignorant Bruno-Marasca are, as the DNA showed a definitive 15 alleles of Mez and the bra clasp a near full 18 of Raff. That is much more than is required in all advanced jurisdictions (UK=11 alleles is legally enough to establish ID for sure.).

And around we go again!!

According. to you every genetic, Forensic DNA expert in the world is ignorant. Except for you.

Name one DNA expert who agrees with you. (Asked of you for the gazillionth time with no answer.)
 
It shows how ignorant Bruno-Marasca are, as the DNA showed a definitive 15 alleles of Mez and the bra clasp a near full 18 of Raff. That is much more than is required in all advanced jurisdictions (UK=11 alleles is legally enough to establish ID for sure.).

Wait you're saying the Supreme Court was wrong? But a couple posts ago you were defending the Supreme Court...which is it...
 
Thank you! It is as I remember (except for the names).

I figured one of the "M" posters would come through with the answer to my question (the other possibly being Machiavelli). You both refer to trial documents which I find hold the best answers.

I'm with you on that, and with all the documents available from both sides, it doesn't make sense to refer to (outdated) newspaper articles or even the books. This case is in the realm of the archivists and historians now, since most of the activists have moved on...

While waiting for a decision from the ECHR, the questions left to talk about are not who killed Meredith Kercher, when, where and how. Those questions have been answered... "Poor Rudy".

What's left to talk about is a bunch of "why's"...
 
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[...]
Any idea what happened to Amanda's coat? Disposed of, by any chance? Or was the adrenaline rush she was experiencing, enough to keep her warm, even though they supposedly knew nothing about a body at this stage. Or maybe it was the energetic cleaning she was doing with her mop?

Waiting to be Heard, Chapter 6:
Since I’d left the house without my jacket, Raffaele took off his gray one with faux-fur lining and put it on me.
Looks like she was allowed to retrieve her jacket from the house after it was sealed since she's wearing it in this picture:
picture.php

Must be after this (iconic) one was taken:
picture.php
 
Vixen calls Bruno-Marasca wrong and incompetent in their evaluation of the DNA evidence, and then Vixen applies some arbitrary example of the number of alleles needed, in law, to be identified for a positive match. Vixen's claim is that Bruno-Marasca are incompetent for going beyond this (acc. to Vixen) simple guilt-marker.

To this, from Section 4.1 onwards, Bruno-Marasca write what the issues really are in this case. First and foremost, that when there's a rush to judgement because of, "the international nature of the story," it makes it all the more important to adhere to international Forensic-DNA standards..... because the world is watching.

Bruno-Marasca said:
So when the central point of technical activity contains specialist genetic investigations, the contribution of investigative activity is ever more relevant; credible parameters of correctness must respect international standards of protocols, following fundamental rules of approach prescribed by the scientific community, on the basis of statistical and validated observations.​
Bruno-Marasca then go on (Sec 4.2ff) to show that the Nencini trial simply did not follow anything resembling the Scientific Method in evaluating the forensics.

In Sec 6.1 Bruno-Marasca start a discussion on the "trustworthiness of the evidence". In the section, they pair this trustworthiness, or lack of same, with a "motive" which both matches that evidence and converges on it. Their assessment of that is:

(It) cannot be maintained in the case at hand, in the face of a body of evidence which is ambiguous and intrinsically contradictory.

In particular, none of the possible motives out of the range of those indicated by the annulled ruling itself can be ascertained in the present case.​
But back to the issue Vixen continually raises and refuses to engage in any discussion about - except to repeat the factoid about allele-level being the sole, revealing issue.

To this, Bruno-Marasca engage FULLY in Section 7 the real discussion a court should be having, one that the Nencini court did not have - therefore M/B annuled the Nencini verdict:

- a judge cannot substitute himself as a supra-expert over and above the real, scientific experts

- with that said, the judge must still sort out the conundrum of competing experts who often argue polar opposite things

- in sorting that out, the judge cannot simply rule in a vacuum as-if the judge was the sole arbiter, the judge must refer to some outside expertise acc. to "the bridging rule", which finds it's most concrete rendering from, "Section 1, no. 31456 of 21/05/2006. Franzioni, Rv. 240764".​
In Section 7.1 Marasca-Bruno then apply all this to the Nencini verdict in front of them. M/B first criticizes Nencini for not even trying to make his DNA judgments according to outside, scientific considerations.

Marasca-Bruno Section 7.1 said:
(Nencini's) findings are not at all respectful of the regulations approved by international protocols and those which, ordinarily, must take inspiration from the scientific method.​
Marasca-Bruno go on to say that Nencini's errors in the forensics include:
- mistaking compatibility with identity

- failing to take into account the shortcomings of the investigation-collection process of the evidence

- "Taking into account such considerations one really cannot see how the results of the genetic analysis – that were performed in violation of the recommendations for the protocols regarding the collection and storage – can be considered endowed of the characteristics of seriousness and preciseness."​
Bruno-Marasca make considerable mention of the problems associated with improper storage of evidence. This alone challenges the "repeatability" issue required by the scientific method, so that the same item of evidence can produce the same result, thus bolstering confidence that it is meaningful, and not the result of a false positive. In the way the Kercher case was handled, this is totally absent, so says Bruno-Marasca (citing the Conte-Vecchiotti report).

The fate of the bra-clasp as yielding useful, repeatable evidence is cited.

Back to Vixen's point of the number of alleles. Bruno-Marasca then cite the Low Copy Number issues, meaning that it was not possible to repeat the amplification of the samples - and the protocols in the field require two and sometimes three repeats:

is absolutely necessary in order for the result of the analysis to be considered reliable, so as to exclude the risk of “false positives” within statistical boundaries of insignificant probability.​
So Vixen can quote the number of alleles all she wants. The issue she'll avoid like the plague is the other issue more central to the scientific method itself. Repeatability.

Herein lies, therefore, the error in judgment committed by the Judge a quo [of the trial from which this appeal is being heard] in assigning, instead, circumstantial value to the findings of the genetic investigations incapable of amplification or the result of unorthodox methods of collection.
 
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