The Theory of Relativity will begin to fall apart in 2016/2017

[MRC_Hans]

I wrote that altitude could maybe not be measured by radar, - But I am not sure, properly that too can be done very accurate. - So we properly have all what we need to reveal any theoretical / measureable disagreement.

Rubbish, Bjarne. The whole principle of GPS relies on the position and altitude of the satellites being known precisely all the time.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

If the TDOA data is used to calculate the distance between satellites (or orbit altitude) it will not be so bad, I believe - but so soon such data is compared with theoretical calculated data (for polar satellites) trouble begins..

Nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

I do not agree.
It required that satellites are dedicated for such scientific test, like for example Galileo 5 & 6, or ISS

GPS has mainly a commercial purpose
if clock all the time is synchronized you will not be able to have long lasting test

All wrong. All you are doing is demonstrating your ignorance. You seem to be proud of your own ignorance.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

[
Why? What's different about those satellites? How are the dark-flow effects big enough to be measured by Galileo and ISS, but too small to be measured by GPS?.

Nobody said GPS are too small etc..
ISS and Galileo are dedicated for scientific test..

For heaven's sake, GPS is procured and managed by the USAF, and they are not a commercial entity.

Still GPS is more a commercial product, rather than a scientific test facility..

In the same way the Chernobyl power plant was a commercial product (and probably a military too) – but it is not a scientific controlled facility, because if it was it would not have exploded.

 

[dasmiller]

Nobody said GPS are too small etc..
ISS and Galileo are dedicated for scientific test..

Neither ISS, Galileo, nor GPS were designed for testing GR/SR. Tests of GR/SR are being done with all three systems.

Still GPS is more a commercial product, rather than a scientific test facility..

In the same way the Chernobyl power plant was a commercial product (and probably a military too) – but it is not a scientific controlled facility, because if it was it would not have exploded.

I see . . . GPS doesn't detect fundamental flaws in SR because the Chernobyl reactor had poor quality control. Did I follow that right?

 

[Bjarne]

Yes, it is important. Apparently, you have no idea how GPS works, but simply said your receiver times the distance to several satellites and calculates the position from that. Obviously, if the exact position, including altitude, of the satellites, then your GPS device will not be able to get the correct position.

Hans

Why do you doubt whether i know how the TDOA works ?

The point is that on the one hand you have TDOA measured data, on the other han you can used calculated data, - such as perturbation - SR / GR influence, - gravitational anomalies, - atmospheric collision, - different / angle of space whether impact, - signal delay, - and yes most of the time these 2 sets of data must fit.
And because the 2 sets of data fits, it no reason for calculating such 100 times every day.

I mean are you also digging 100 equal size holes in your garden every day just for fun , only for testing whether the holes all always are the same size ?

No off course not..

In the same way, Why lose time on a job that TDOA very easy can handle..

And this is the point

Even though theoretical calculated data and measured TDOA data, - 500 time has shown no disagreement, - there are still reason to be suspicious.

Polar orbiting satellite can be exceptions. Not all of them very significant, - but if the orbit inclination is close to north relative to ecliptic,- we will sooner or later discover very significant unexpected time dilation anomalies.

No doubt about it.

Off course scientific dedicated satellites, have much larger change, to reveal that.. simply because data can be collected without any interruption, and with full scientific focus.
Exactly therefore some satellites are dedicated to test relativity, - included ISS.

Its like you all agree, that there are no reason to test relativity based on satelittes, - we know everything to 1 millimeter precision right ?..
So why on earth must it be done on board ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 these years ?
Just because it is funny to waste tax payers money ?
Or because we are still not quite sure whether something may be rotten ?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Why do you doubt whether i know how the TDOA works ?

Because you obviously don't:

The point is that on the one hand you have TDOA measured data, on the other han you can used calculated data, - such as perturbation SR / GR influence, gravitational anomalies, - atmospheric collision, different / angle of space whether impact, and yes most of the time these 2 sets of data must fit. And because the 2 sets of data fits, it no reason for calculating such 100 times every day.

See? You are just inventing stuff as you go along. Bjarne, millions of people are using GPS at any moment in time. They use it to find their way, to locate items, and even for silly things like Pokémon Go. If it didn't function alle the time, every time, people would notice. Then they would not get the right position. And GPS only works if the science is right.

Even though theoretical calculated data and measured TDOA data, - 500 time have shown no disagreement, - there are still reason to be suspicious.

How about 500 million times .... per day?

Polar orbiting satellite can be exceptions. Not all of them very significant, - but if the orbit inclination is close to north relative to ecliptic,- we will sooner or later discover very significant unexpected time dilation anomalies.

No, we will not.

Its like you all agree, that there are no reason to test relativity on baord satelittes, - we know everything to 1 millimeter precision right ?..
So why on earth must it be done on board ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 these years ?
Just because it is funny to waste tax payers money OR ?

OK, I will add science to the list of things you fail to understand. Bjarne, science is always looking for the next decimal. Because that is the way to learn new things, but it doesn't mean that the previous decimals are wrong.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Because you obviously don't:

Nothing but idiotic / arrogant personall attach

See? You are just inventing stuff as you go along. Bjarne, millions of people are using GPS at any moment in time. They use it to find their way, to locate items, and even for silly things like Pokémon Go. If it didn't function alle the time, every time, people would notice. Then they would not get the right position. And GPS only works if the science is right.

Completely out of context

OK, I will add science to the list of things you fail to understand.

Nothing but idiotic / arrogant personall attach

Bjarne, science is always looking for the next decimal. Because that is the way to learn new things, but it doesn't mean that the previous decimals are wrong.

You just saw a ESA youtube video,- and you like it, - the whole inflation theory could easy be wrong, - shall we also call this, - the next decimal ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eavab9siYg

And remember not long ago it was ONLY idiotic ignorant poorly educated village cranks that ´could suggest such.....
Today it comes from Europe’s finest university..

 

[Reality Check]

Try to imagine ...

Resorting to insulting the level of knowledge of other posters is not good, Bjarne.
Grandmothers who know physics know what The Man wrote about. Classic physics, SR and GR tell us what needs to be done to keep the same laws of physics when we change frames of reference, e.g. from an observer travelling at one velocity to an observer travelling at a different velocity (Lorentz transformation).

 

[Reality Check]

Still there are no altitude measurement devices on board.

There are a few satellites with altitude measurement devices (radar altimeters). They are primarily used to map the Earth's surface.

Scientists are not stupid, Bjarne. They know that in order to measure the altitude of a satellite they need to bounce radar signals off them. They know that weight costs money to get into orbit so satellites need to be as light as possible. It is cheaper to have ground-based radar to measure the altitude of any satellite rather then putting a radar altimeter in all satellites.

 

[Reality Check]

It is not the TDOA that is the problem, but that you cannot distinguish SR and GR time dilation contribution / "signals".

We do not need to, Bjarne.
If we do not include a SR time dilation contribution then GPS satellites do not work.
If we do not include a GR time dilation contribution then GPS satellites do not work.
If we include both SR and GR time dilation contributions then GPS satellites work.
Real-World Relativity: The GPS Navigation System
Neither is needed for a TDOA position measurement.

 

[Reality Check]

You mean radar measurement
If so you will measure the speed, not the altitude

You may be thinking about radar guns used by traffic police, Bjarne. These work by reading the Doppler shift caused by the velocity of the cars.

Radar altimeters work like the radars used in airports and aircraft by measuring the time that a signal takes to be reflected and multiplying by the speed of light.

 

[Reality Check]

You just saw a ESA youtube video,- and you like it, - the whole inflation theory could easy be wrong, - shall we also call this, - the next decimal ?

Well duh, Bjarne !
New ESA/PLANCK ultra space-time map is "the next decimal point" after WMAP.
WMAP was "the next decimal point" after COBE.
COBE was "the next decimal point" after balloon measurements.
Balloon measurements were the "next decimal point" after the CMB was discovered.
That is how empirical science works. Something is discovered. The discovery typically has a low level of accuracy. Scientists work out how to investigate the discovery at a better level of accuracy. Predictions are made that need even more accuracy. Scientists work out how to get that accuracy and do the measurements. More predictions are made that need even more accuracy. Scientists work out how to get that accuracy and do the measurements. etc. etc.

However "the whole inflation theory could easy be wrong" assertion is wrong. The New ESA/PLANCK ultra space-time map agreed with the whole inflation theory. It would be hard for inflation to be wrong because it explains several key things about the universe, e.g. why we do not detect magnetic monopoles even though they should be created in the early universe.

 

[fuelair]

Yes, it is important. Apparently, you have no idea how GPS works, but simply said your receiver times the distance to several satellites and calculates the position from that. Obviously, if the exact position, including altitude, of the satellites, then your GPS device will not be able to get the correct position.

Hans

You do realize, I assume, that while some of those words MAY be known to Bjarne, the meanings when they are used together in coherent and meaningful ways are not!!!

 

[Peregrinus]

Still GPS is more a commercial product, rather than a scientific test facility..
.

False. GPS was developed by and for the military for navigation more precise than was possible with LORAN & similar systems; originally the signals for civilian use were intentionally degraded (selective availability) until SA was discontinued in 1996. And your use of "facility" is inappropriate to the context.

 

[JeanTate]

This post is more for my fellow ISF members like dasmiller than for the OP (though I think their responses may reveal much that the OP simply did not know, and also more pointed questions about the OP's proposed overthrow of SR and GR).

Do (did) any of the satellites in Molniya orbits carry atomic clocks? If so, have their orbital positions been tracked (etc) with accuracy and precision comparable to that of GPS, Galileo, etc (I know there is more than one 'GPS', and that the naming can be a bit confusing)?

How does the accuracy and precision in orbital determination (etc) of SLR (satellite laser ranging) compare with those from GPS?

Satellite ranging, both radio/radar and laser, has a long history; the latest published results include those from LARES and LAGEOS (e.g. Cuifolini+ 2016; "A test of general relativity using the LARES and LAGEOS satellites and a GRACE Earth gravity model").

I think there's no point in introducing LLR (Lunar Laser Ranging) experiments and results (e.g. those from APOLLO); I seriously doubt that Bjarne could show - in a quantitative, objective, independently verifiable way - how they are consistent with his 'overthrow relativity' ideas (not least because those ideas are subjective, not independently verifiable, etc). Ditto that whatever the upcoming ISS experiment is, published LLR results are likely far more accurate and precise, as tests of his ideas ...

 

[Bjarne]

You may be thinking about radar guns used by traffic police, Bjarne. These work by reading the Doppler shift caused by the velocity of the cars.

Radar altimeters work like the radars used in airports and aircraft by measuring the time that a signal takes to be reflected and multiplying by the speed of light.

This could perhaps be the one that also is flown to ISS

 

[MRC_Hans]

Nothing but idiotic / arrogant personall attach


Completely out of context

Wrong. I actually pointed out that you clearly demonstrated that you don't understand how GPS works. Since this is part of what we discuss, it is a valid entry into the discussion.

You just saw a ESA youtube video,- and you like it, - the whole inflation theory could easy be wrong, - shall we also call this, - the next decimal ?

1. No it doesn't say that the entire inflation theory might be wrong, just that it may have to be modified.

2. Yes, this is in fact just the next decimal; the inflation theory, and whether it is cyclic or not, actually relies on decimals. ... Which is the reason it is being researched.

And remember not long ago it was ONLY idiotic ignorant poorly educated village cranks that ´could suggest such.....
Today it comes from Europe’s finest university..

Entirely wrong. It has always been central to the debate. However, institutes like ESA (which is not a university, but how should you know?) are basing their views on evidence, unlike the uneducated village cranks, who just make unsupported claims.

This is the reason I trust ESA, but not you.

Hans

 

[Peregrinus]

This could perhaps be the one that also is flown to ISS

Conjecture & problematical at best. Actually, drivel and flagrant ignorance. Total lack of supporting data. As expected.

 

[fuelair]

Damn, I just bought a "time dilation measurement" tape measure. You mean that won't work?

Did you do the Dark Flow cleanup in aisle 5 yet? If not, that could well be your problem.