French church attacked by terrorists

[Craig B]

Like doing what I wrote in an earlier post. Do try to follow, will you?

Incessant apologies are still sought from Germany and Japan, two societies who produced utter horror, but were also completely rehabilitated. This wasn't achieved by claiming only individuals carried blame though.

McHrozni

I'm trying, but I'm still finding it very hard to follow. Are you stating that being German is something that requires to be repudiated, or to be incessantly apologised for? Or that being German predisposes to totalitarianism, or that being German is in any way a problem?

 

[A'isha]

Incessant apologies are still sought from Germany and Japan, two societies who produced utter horror, but were also completely rehabilitated. This wasn't achieved by claiming only individuals carried blame though.

Apologies are sought from the governments of the nations of Germany and Japan. No one is going around demanding that Germans and Japanese living in, say, the US apologize for World War II.

 

[Giz]

I'm trying, but I'm still finding it very hard to follow. Are you stating that being German is something that requires to be repudiated, or to be incessantly apologised for? Or that being German predisposes to totalitarianism, or that being German is in any way a problem?

Being German is fine. Being proud to be a German is fine. Encouraging your friends to be proud to be German is fine. Thinking that Germans are superior to everyone else and should therefore subjugate others… that’s a problem.

 

[Craig B]

Being German is fine. Being proud to be a German is fine. Encouraging your friends to be proud to be German is fine. Thinking that Germans are superior to everyone else and should therefore subjugate others… that’s a problem.

Yes. Now it was those people who thought that who were the problem. They stated: We are the True Germans. People who disagree with us are traitors to their race. But that was completely delusional, wasn't it? They weren't really the Only True Germans, were they?

 

[Giz]

Yes. Now it was those people who thought that who were the problem. They stated: We are the True Germans. People who disagree with us are traitors to their race. But that was completely delusional, wasn't it? They weren't really the Only True Germans, were they?

Right. It's nothing to do with race. It's an ideology that needs to be defeated.

 

[Craig B]

I don't protest against the North Korean government because they're not committing crimes in the name of my value system, and casting suspicion on all of us who profess that value system.

How would th the radicalization of young Muslims in France be affected, if the overwhelming, vocal message of the French Muslim community was openly anti-ISIS? If the French Muslim community took a public stand alongside their fellow citizens in their common struggle against Islamic extremism abroad and at home?

Do they not take such a stand?

 

[Craig B]

Right. It's nothing to do with race. It's an ideology that needs to be defeated.

That is true, an ideology. It was a delusional ideology. It claimed to be, but was not, the only valid expression of German culture. It was not the defender of German national interests; and it was not the protector of Christianity against the onslaughts of hostile Judaism, as it claimed to be.

It was an ideology that needed to be defeated. German culture and the Christian religion did not have to be defeated in order to achieve this.

 

[Giz]

That is true, an ideology. It was a delusional ideology. It claimed to be, but was not, the only valid expression of German culture. It was not the defender of German national interests; and it was not the protector of Christianity against the onslaughts of hostile Judaism, as it claimed to be.

It was an ideology that needed to be defeated. German culture and the Christian religion did not have to be defeated in order to achieve this.

But German nationalism was to some extent a subset of German patriotism, and decent German patriots have acknowledged and disavowed that extreme supremacism.

 

[Darth Rotor]

He denied the existence of a "religious conflict", and isn't quoted as saying anything about an "ideological war".

I consider those two statements equivalent, but you are free to disagree. I also find that one should never take at face value an utterance from a Pope.

 

[Darth Rotor]

This is an aside, but doesn't¨"Allahu Akbar" literally mean "God is greater", and technically its use compares the size or magnificence of various things to God? E.g. "God is greater than this time of crisis", "This city is so large, perhaps only God is greater", "Your deed is great, but don't be too prideful, for God is greater still", etc.

I'll suggest to you that your attempted translation is context dependent. It may mean that in some contexts, and it can something as simple as "God is great" in another context.

 

[Belz...]

Like doing what I wrote in an earlier post.

...what?

Incessant apologies are still sought from Germany and Japan

Which is ridiculous. Denazification is one thing, but cross-generational?

This wasn't achieved by claiming only individuals carried blame though.

I wonder if you can spot the difference, here.

 

[Craig B]

But German nationalism was to some extent a subset of German patriotism, and decent German patriots have acknowledged and disavowed that extreme supremacism.

They were doing that even during the Nazi period.

Islamic extremism has affected a subset of the Muslim population of the world, and decent Muslims have acknowledged and disavowed that extremism.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Wait, isn't it?

<checks>

Why, yes it is.

I reject that claim made by Islam as nonsense. In order to make peace with Islam, it has been accorded the respect it has demanded, always with a sword. But taken on own merits, nonsense.

 

[dudalb]

I reject that claim made by Islam as nonsense. In order to make peace with Islam, it has been accorded the respect it has demanded, always with a sword. But taken on own merits, nonsense.

Your statement about Islam not being a Abrahmic religion is nonsense. It is so classified by just about every scholar of the History of Religion.

 

[BStrong]

ISIS are arguably a direct result of an illegal war.

Their methods are sick as.

But the coalition brought it on themselves

Like the ATF at OKC?

 

[A'isha]

I reject that claim made by Islam as nonsense. In order to make peace with Islam, it has been accorded the respect it has demanded, always with a sword. But taken on own merits, nonsense.

There are some 245 verses in the Qur'an across 25 suwar that talk about Abraham - only Moses is mentioned more. He's considered the first to have brought scripture down for humanity, and is the only other person besides Muhammad to be described as "pure of faith" in the Qur'an, and is almost a foundational figure, the precursor of Muhammad. The stories told about Abraham are mostly direct repeats of stories in the Bible/Torah, including his relationship with Lot, the circumstances of the birth of his son Isaac, and his near-sacrifice of his son to God before being stopped by God.

Given the relative importance of him in the two religions, Islam is more of an "Abrahamic" religion than Christianity is, really.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Damn you A'isha! I yet again have to rethink some of my notions

So often it feels like a slam dunk that you are wrong, and yet many times you ad the nuance to make my position look weak. A pox upon your house

Ignorance is bliss, why can't I just be happy being wrong?

 

[McHrozni]

Apologies are sought from the governments of the nations of Germany and Japan. No one is going around demanding that Germans and Japanese living in, say, the US apologize for World War II.

You might want to talk to tje Koreans and Chinese about that.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

I'm trying, but I'm still finding it very hard to follow. Are you stating that being German is something that requires to be repudiated, or to be incessantly apologised for? Or that being German predisposes to totalitarianism, or that being German is in any way a problem?

My point was that being German was, in the recent past, used to commit attrocities en par to ISIS, but that is no longer the case. This was ended, and not by saying only those who did the actual attrocities deserved blame. Replace German with Muslim and the argument changes completely.

Why is that?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

I don't protest against the North Korean government because they're not committing crimes in the name of my value system, and casting suspicion on all of us who profess that value system.

How would th the radicalization of young Muslims in France be affected, if the overwhelming, vocal message of the French Muslim community was openly anti-ISIS? If the French Muslim community took a public stand alongside their fellow citizens in their common struggle against Islamic extremism abroad and at home?

Precisely. The main goal is not to get an apology, that won't help anyone. Muslims might be seen a bit more favorably, which is welcome, but that's it. Radicalization however should be more difficult, which is a good thing. Yet, excuses abound, with no explanation for them.

Funny, that.

McHrozni