At that range it would have been better to use the iron sights than the narrow field of view scope that was mounted. In fact it is possible that Oswald did use the irons. The scope mount on the M/C was a "see-under" type that allowed use of the original sights.
JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales
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At that range it would have been better to use the iron sights than the narrow field of view scope that was mounted. In fact it is possible that Oswald did use the irons. The scope mount on the M/C was a "see-under" type that allowed use of the original sights.
MicahJava
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I think anybody would come to realize that there was no "first missed shot". I used to accept it, until I read this summary of the eyewitness accounts which show that the first shot had to come at around Zapruder frame 190-224.
http://www.patspeer.com/, chapter 5-9b
Any theorized shot before Z190-224 is most likely a hoax designed to A. discredit the witnesses who heard the last two shots close together, and B. rationalize why Connolly always swore that he was struck by a second bullet. There has also been a lot of discussion about how Oswald would have had to miss the first shot to zero-in the MC.
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Axxman300
Philosopher
Throught the scope Kennedy's head would have looked like a watermelon.
Axxman300
Philosopher
I clicked the link, the guy flips out about the "magic bullet" concept, telling me he has done zero actual research.
The records indicate that the scope wasn't accurized,possibly losing it's zero when he snuck it in and hid it. If Oswald had become a scope-jockey while training up for the shooting, then he would have looked down the scope, and fired, and missed. His adjustment would have been to switch to the iron sights, which on the MC is easily done, and his next two shots found their target.
Nothing that happened was outside of the performance capabilities of the man nor the rifle. Before you can rule in a CT you have to rule out Oswald, and you can't. Nobody can - because he did it.
MicahJava
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How unfortunate you can't provide evidence for a first missed shot. Can anybody?
Axxman300
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Actually, the missed first shot has been part of JFK-CT lore from the beginning. Oliver Stone even illustrated on the big-screen in his SciFi movie. People on the street look around away from the limo, Kennedy stops waving.
I find it fascinating that CTers are free to read into the Zapruder Film all kinds of fanciful things they wish to see, but others are fooling themselves.
Oswald fired 3 shots. 2 struck their target.
The Secret Service Agent driving the vehicle directly behind the President swore until he passed away that all three rounds struck the vehicle. The Warren Commission never interviewed him. It doesn't make him right, but it is an example of a person with the best view of the Presidential limo seeing something different than everyone else.
MicahJava
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John Lattimer, Gerald Posner, Dale Meyers, and Vincent Bugliosi all promote(d) the "first missed shot". I think the "first missed shot" theory is a way to discredit the witnesses who heard the last two shots close together, and to rationalize Connally's testimony that he was struck by a second bullet.
Hans
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It was my understanding that three shell casing were found at the sniper's position?
Axxman300
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You are correct.
HSienzant
Philosopher
First you admit there's only speculation regarding his falsifying any scores, then I thank you for that admission, and then you call it a non sequitur. You're right, it is. What you said doesn't follow from the preceding remarks whatsoever.
Another non sequitur. Do you have a complaint with the way the Marines did it circa 1958? What's your precise complaint and what do you hope to accomplish by raising it here?
I quoted Zahm, whose background was in shooting, talking about Oswald's shooting for the record.
== quote ==
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps, Sergeant Zahm?
Sergeant ZAHM. Eighteen years.
Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist?
Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record.
Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty?
Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months.
Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship?
Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches from 1952...
== unquote ==
You quoted Folsom, a personnel record keeper, talking about his practice shooting.
== quote ==
Mr. ELY - Would you state your full name, please?
Colonel FOLSOM - Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, Jr., U.S. Marine Corps.
Mr. ELY - What is your job in the Marine Corps, sir?
Colonel FOLSOM - My primary duty is head, Records Branch, Personnel Department, Headquarters U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.
Mr. ELY - How long have you held this position?
Colonel FOLSOM - Approximately 3 years. ...
Mr. ELY - All right. The primary reason that we have called you here, colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with Oswald, but because of your position. We have here Oswald's Marine records, and we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test scores and things like that.
== unquote ==
Zahm is speaking as an shooting expert. Folsom was there to interpret abbreviations on Oswald's Marine Corps record.
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
(a) Most of the witnesses (about 90%) thought three shots were fired. More witnesses testified to two shots than to four or more.
(b) About ten witnesses in Dealey Plaza identified one of the upper floors of the TSBD as where they saw a shooter, or a rifle.
(c) On the sixth floor, in the southeastern corner window facing Elm Street, three spent rifle shells were found. From a, b, and c, we can reasonably conclude three shots were fired from that window.
(d) We have evidence of a bullet striking the back of JFK's head and exiting the right top (Zapruder film, autopsy report, autopsy x-rays and photos, and the HSCA pathology review panel).
(e) Two large bullet fragments, most likely from one bullet, comprising the front quarter and the rear quarter of a bullet, were found in the limo by the Secret Service after the shooting. Those two large fragments were ballistically traceable to the rifle found on the sixth floor, to the exclusion of all other shots in the world. That takes care of one of the three shots the witnesses heard.
(f) JFK had a wound in his upper back that exited his throat (autopsy report, and the HSCA pathology review panel).
(g) According to tests by Lattimer and others, the bullet would not have been greatly deformed by this passage but would have started to yaw as it exited JFK's neck.
(h) Seated in front of the President, but slightly to the left and a bit lower than the President, was Governor Connally.
(i) According to on-location tests done in Dealey Plaza, a bullet exiting JFK's throat on a downward trajectory from the sixth floor had to have struck something in the limo in front of JFK. There was no damage to the seat back or seat, however John Connally was struck at approximately the same time.
(j) Connally's wound in his back was elongated, which would be explained by a yawing bullet.
(k) Connally suffered a wound through his trunk, a wound through his wrist, and a wound in his thigh. It was the judgment of his primary physician that all those wounds could have been caused by one bullet.
(l) No bullet was found in Connally, only minutes fragments in his wrist. A nearly whole bullet was found at Parkland Hospital on a different floor from where the Governor was being treated. It was found on one of two stretchers, one of which had nothing to do with a shooting, and the other of which happened to be the Governor's. This takes care of the second bullet.
(m) There appears to be a bullet missing, hence a missed shot.
The Warren Commission did not decide which shot missed, because the Zapruder film is without sound, and the witnesses disagreed on the exact sequence of events.
They provided three scenarios, a first shot miss, a second shot miss, and a third shot miss.
You can read about it here: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm
It appears you object to the first shot miss scenario, but you don't tell us specifically why, or which shot you think missed.
Can you do that now?
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
The initial FBI report of December 9th has all three shots hitting occupants of the limo. The missed shot scenario arose during the Warren Commission deliberations.
See Point 1A... http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=8&tab=page
"Two bullets struck President Kennedy, and one struck Governor Connally."
Hank
MicahJava
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HSienzant, for a few days I've been arguing on http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com that there is basically zero eyewitness evidence that the first shot missed. Actually, there seems to be almost unanimous eyewitness support that Kennedy reacted to the first loud shot like he did in Z190-224. Zero witnesses ever claimed to remember Kennedy smiling and waving after the first loud blaring shot rung out.
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,13460.msg450180.html#msg450180
The "first missed shot" is a theory designed to shy away from conspiracy. It discredits the witnesses who heard the last two shots very close together and rationalizes why Connally always swore he was struck by a separate, second bullet after the first loud shot he heart.
I already linked to the chapters of patspeer.com which samples and examines almost ever witness statement from Dealey Plaza to show that the first shot happened at Z190-224. The mass of the witness statements describing the shot sequence show that the loud shots most likely happened somewhere around Z190, z313, and shortly after Z313.
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,13460.msg450180.html#msg450180
The "first missed shot" is a theory designed to shy away from conspiracy. It discredits the witnesses who heard the last two shots very close together and rationalizes why Connally always swore he was struck by a separate, second bullet after the first loud shot he heart.
I already linked to the chapters of patspeer.com which samples and examines almost ever witness statement from Dealey Plaza to show that the first shot happened at Z190-224. The mass of the witness statements describing the shot sequence show that the loud shots most likely happened somewhere around Z190, z313, and shortly after Z313.
Tomtomkent
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Why do would there be a need to discredit anybody who heard a differing number of shots?
That so many varying numbers of shots and echoes were reported makes it clear better evidence than confused testimony is required anyway.
As usual CTs are praying to a god of the gaps.
That so many varying numbers of shots and echoes were reported makes it clear better evidence than confused testimony is required anyway.
As usual CTs are praying to a god of the gaps.
MicahJava
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What? Most witnesses heard three shots. I'll acknowledge that there were three loud shots. Most witnesses who described the shooting sequence said that the last two shots were close together.
What? Not really. Reading all of the over 200 witnesses who detailed their recollections of the shot sequence, they don't contradict eachother that much if you take the time to understand what they are describing.
What?
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Axxman300
Philosopher
Yes, the FBI felt that way as did the Secret Service. Like you said, it was the Warren Commission that disputed their claim, which opened up a can of worms for Mark Lane and the budding CT surrounding the killing.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Dealey Plaza has a nasty, wicked echo. I know this first hand from my visit there. What someone heard depended on where they stood. Witness sound testimony is the least reliable element in this specific case.
MicahJava
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I love how LNers just forfeit the hundreds of witness accounts to the CT crowd. Like they don't even want to bother interpreting it into something that could come close to supporting the official story.
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Tomtomkent
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Tomtomkent
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Ok... A thought experiment.
Given how many varying accounts are "forfeit" to the conspiracy theorists, how does a CT choose which of the variations is reliable?
There are so many contradicting statements it would be pure folly to bad a theory on any one witness given how many are going to contradict them.
It does not matter how reliable or honest you think a witness is, you need some objective measure to show a description is more accurate than others.
It will always boil back to needing better evidence.
So... Why do CTs always rely so heavily on evidence that is contradictory and confused?
Given how many varying accounts are "forfeit" to the conspiracy theorists, how does a CT choose which of the variations is reliable?
There are so many contradicting statements it would be pure folly to bad a theory on any one witness given how many are going to contradict them.
It does not matter how reliable or honest you think a witness is, you need some objective measure to show a description is more accurate than others.
It will always boil back to needing better evidence.
So... Why do CTs always rely so heavily on evidence that is contradictory and confused?
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