Sometimes Obama gets it right (apologizes to slighted Marine guard)

[Puppycow]

It's been a while since I was in the Navy but I think I still remember the basic rules for saluting.

1) You are only supposed to salute when "covered", i.e., when wearing your cover, which is what we call the hat. You only wear your cover when outdoors, and when in uniform, you must also have your cover on when outdoors. You never salute when wearing civilian clothes. Nor do you salute somebody who is not in uniform.

Presidents don't generally wear hats or covers either indoors or outdoors, so really they shouldn't be saluting or returning salutes (since nobody is above the president, there is no one for him to salute, but it's kind of awkward when you are saluted to not return a salute). The person saluting (the lower-ranked person) is not supposed to drop the salute until it is returned. Which is another reason why it is kind of awkward to not return a salute. So I guess for presidents and nobody else, you can return a salute without a cover or a uniform.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

First, sorry about the virus warnings. I don't get one there for some reason.

Second, as the president is (at least nominally) part of the Chain of Command, wouldn't that render him salute-worthy?

Lastly on the issue of Obama's dialogues and intentions. I suppose you could argue he's a "uniter" in the sense that he united everyone who opposed him and everyone who agreed with him into two polarized and increasingly radicalized groups. Both the revived militia movement and the anti-LEO assassins are in large part products of his pronouncements.

As an office that is supposed to represent all of the citizen of the US, that does not go down in my book as a positive accomplishment.

 

[Ziggurat]

Second, as the president is (at least nominally) part of the Chain of Command, wouldn't that render him salute-worthy?

Yes, military personnel salute the President because he is their commander. The question is whether the President should salute back. It used to be that the President did not. Reagan changed that, and since then Presidents do salute.

I don't have a problem with either tradition. If a president wants to change that, the appropriate time to do so is probably at the start of his term, and he should probably make a public announcement of the change, and the reasons for it. Obama doesn't seem interested in changing it, so if he's saluting, he should do so consistently. I don't consider it a huge deal if he forgets once, but if he does, he should apologize. He has done so, so that matter is basically closed.

Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist with a contempt for much of the country and little respect for the military, and he uses divisiveness as a deliberate tactic, but this specific incident is a nothingburger.

 

[pgwenthold]

First, sorry about the virus warnings. I don't get one there for some reason.

Second, as the president is (at least nominally) part of the Chain of Command, wouldn't that render him salute-worthy?

Lastly on the issue of Obama's dialogues and intentions. I suppose you could argue he's a "uniter" in the sense that he united everyone who opposed him and everyone who agreed with him into two polarized and increasingly radicalized groups. Both the revived militia movement and the anti-LEO assassins are in large part products of his pronouncements.

As an office that is supposed to represent all of the citizen of the US, that does not go down in my book as a positive accomplishment.

A real uniter would have conceded more to the racists?

 

[pgwenthold]

Off the wall question: what would be the response if some president at some point refused to salute, and justified it on the fact that "I did not serve in the military, and, as a civilian, am not qualified or worthy to be saluting those who are. I have too much respect for our military to think that I deserve to participate in military activities. I am the commander-in-chief, but I am a civilian."

Could someone pull it off?

 

[Upchurch]

Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist with a contempt for much of the country and little respect for the military

That actually made me laugh out loud.

Well, chuckle softly. I am in the office.

 

[Pope130]

Off the wall question: what would be the response if some president at some point refused to salute, and justified it on the fact that "I did not serve in the military, and, as a civilian, am not qualified or worthy to be saluting those who are. I have too much respect for our military to think that I deserve to participate in military activities. I am the commander-in-chief, but I am a civilian."

Could someone pull it off?

While customs and courtesies to the President are covered by regulation and tradition for military members, there is no similar regulation imposed on the President. Even a violation of tradition, not covered by specific regulation, is a violation; "Disrespect to a superior." For the President there is precedent and tradition, which are constantly evolving. Some aspect of Sovereign Immunity applies in this area. The Presidents' behavior (so long as it is not illegal) is up to the President.

 

[GodMark2]

While customs and courtesies to the President are covered by regulation and tradition for military members, there is no similar regulation imposed on the President. Even a violation of tradition, not covered by specific regulation, is a violation; "Disrespect to a superior." For the President there is precedent and tradition, which are constantly evolving. Some aspect of Sovereign Immunity applies in this area. The Presidents' behavior (so long as it is not illegal) is up to the President.

I think the question was more: Could anyone pull it off without creating a massive outcry from the pseudo-patriots and pigeon-hawks of "Impeach! Assassinate!".

 

[epeeist]

Puppycow and Ziggurat's posts most matched my memory of this issue, but there's a bit more to it, as this politifact post (with video of Pres. Eisenhower returning salutes as a civilian, albeit on special occasions):

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...-maddow-not-even-old-gen-eisenhower-saluted-/

Regardless of being commander-in-chief and possible past military service, the President is a civilian. Pres. Eisenhower was a civilian (Pres. Kennedy restored him to the rank of General of the Army). So long as the intent is not to be rude, whether the President returns a salute or not, I don't see the big deal (I can understand why politically partisan people make a big deal of it, on either side...).

 

[tyr_13]

That actually made me laugh out loud.

Well, chuckle softly. I am in the office.

I thought he was mostly joking until he repeated it.

 

[pgwenthold]

I think the question was more: Could anyone pull it off without creating a massive outcry from the pseudo-patriots and pigeon-hawks of "Impeach! Assassinate!".

Yep. And "he hates the military!!!"

My thought is if the president were to do it with proper humility, of "As a civilian, I am not worthy to participate in this military custom", would that deter some criticism? Although I'm sure it would be interpreted as a slap against St. Reagan, which might be the biggest objection.

But would actual military people complain?

 

[Upchurch]

I thought he was mostly joking until he repeated it.

Oh. Hrm.

I'd ask what sort of mental gymnastics one would have to go through to reach that conclusion, but I will probably just end up being called a bunch of names.

 

[BStrong]

How long does the custom of the presidential salute go back?

Here's why I ask.

A lot of people think that as commander-in-chief, the President is the nation's highest ranking military man. That's not actually correct. The point of putting the President in charge of the armed forces was that a civilian was directing the military.

And since the President is a civilian, he shouldn't salute. Civilians don't salute military people, and soldiers don't salute civilians.

I remember when Reagan started doing it, people made a big deal about it, but he was the first President of my adult life, so it may have just been the first time I noticed.

The answer to this is not incredibly important, and I'm not trying to make a political point pro or con of any given President. I'm just interested in historical trivia and obscure ceremonial stuff.

You're correct, and iirc Reagan was the first POTUS to return salutes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But it does make it HUMONGOUSLY funnier.

True statement, that.

ETA: Not so true if he wins though. Although I'm not sure Clinton winning is any better. I'm sad. How are CA's immigration policies?

 

[Emily's Cat]

nothingburger.

I like this term.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

And since the President is a civilian, he shouldn't salute. Civilians don't salute military people, and soldiers don't salute civilians.

If that were true, they wouldn't salute the president, but they do.

While not the most pressing item of news on the docket, it's far from "nothingburger" to see him get something right for once when it comes to showing respect.

 

[Meadmaker]

According to the web site I found first when looking up presidential salutes, Reagan was the first president to return the salute. Some congressman or other (Republican, but I don't remember who) was somewhat concerned about the protocol involved, and contacted the Marine Corps Officer In Charge of All Sorts of Tiny Details Who Would Know That Sort of Thing. (Not his actual title, but it was a real office specifically dedicated to protocols, ceremonies, and such) The congressman was given the answer, "He's the Commander in Chief. He can do whatever he wants."

No official confirmation is available for the veracity of that story.

 

[a_unique_person]

That actually made me laugh out loud.

Well, chuckle softly. I am in the office.

I didn't chuckle but I did have a WTF moment.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Lastly on the issue of Obama's dialogues and intentions. I suppose you could argue he's a "uniter" in the sense that he united everyone who opposed him and everyone who agreed with him into two polarized and increasingly radicalized groups. Both the revived militia movement and the anti-LEO assassins are in large part products of his pronouncements.

As an office that is supposed to represent all of the citizen of the US, that does not go down in my book as a positive accomplishment.

Please just stop.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist with a contempt for much of the country and little respect for the military, and he uses divisiveness as a deliberate tactic...

In the fevered imaginations of those who should probably pop an aspirin and go lie down.