Split Thread Signs of the End Times

[Paul Bethke]

Not really, no. Our bodies are an inefficient mess, with plenty of the issues you'd expect from something cobbled together by random changes being winnowed out by natural selection over time.

I highly recommend Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body.



There's also a PBS documentary called "Your Inner Fish" avaialbe via streaming or DVD formats.

I do not agree,our bodies are magnificent when we are in peak condition--yes sickness is taking its victims.

 

[halleyscomet]

Now where will I find a counter argument?

That's kinda your job to figure out.

The simple fact of the matter is the Exodus story as related in the Bible would have left a MASSIVE impact on the archeological record for a long list of reasons, destabilized the region by collapsing the Egyptian economy and military, and resulted in generations of war and violence before a new power arose, if one ever did.

I don't know any Orthodox Jews, but from what I can gather from the liberal Jews I know there's a growing movement to see the Exodus story as not a literal history, but a metaphor to support the Passover. It's seen as a story for God to teach us compassion and to not rejoice in the suffering of others, even our enemies. I recommend attending in a reformed or liberal Passover Seder. It's a very enlightening experience.

A lot of the problems with the Exodus story go away if you read it as a long parable and not a literal history. For example, God hardens Pharaoh's heart not as a cruel and evil act, but to move the narrative along and explain why Pharaoh keeps changing his mind about releasing the Hebrew slaves.

There really isn't a good "counter argument" short of finding a massive volume of archeological evidence that has mysteriously avoided detection until now.

 

[Crossbow]

You used to know him, what happened to him?

I have not seen him for a few years now, so I do not know what happened to him.

The last time I saw him he was bitching about gay marriage, loving lesbian porn, and starting a new job.

 

[Craig B]

Now where will I find a counter argument?

In the absence of any counter argument known to you (in fact there is no rational counter argument to be had anywhere) why not accept the verdict of reason and material evidence: that these mythical events never could and never did occur?

 

[Slowvehicle]

If I accept the Scriptures as the word of the Creator as I see it and not as fantasy—then my conclusion that I arrive at are fact.

No, nt at all. The fact that you "accept" the "scriptures" without evidence (and, in fact, despite more evidence than you will ever bother to read) means that your conclusions are not "facts", but opinions unuspported by fact. I realize you do not understand this.

Your decision that the "scriptures" must be true because the "scriptures" say they are true is the worst sort of hermetical hermeneutic--inescapable circular reasoning.

If you on the other hand dispute the Bible as the record that the Creator gave us through man as his agent, then there will always be a disagreement.

Now what proof do you require to prove that the Scriptures that we have in the Bible are valid?

For one thing, agreement with recorded history would be nice. For another, agreement with demonstrated science would be nice.

In other words, independent support; that is, support for the claims of "scripture" outside of "scripture" itself.

So as I said believing the account in the Bible, it is logical to understand that God gave man laws for his own well being, and when these laws are violated there is a repercussion.

In other words, since you have decided to believe in "scripture", it makes sense (to you) to believe in "scripture".

You would do well to study the epigenesis of the works you blithely claim were "written by Moses".

So Adam and Eve are recorded as being the first humans on earth, so they would both be of the same colour—so how is it that there are so many different shade of this colour?

There you go again, introducing a non-sequitur with a linking preposition...

You are, as is often your wont, shaking the dog at the stick; blaming the piddle for the puppy rather than right way 'round.

The observable fact that human skin color is bewilderingly variable; the paleontological fact that the human species evolved first in Africa; the historical distributions of skin colors; all of these are actually evidence against the legend that Adam & Eve" actually existed as real people (and the only two humans on the planet at one time). You really ought to let facts direct your conclusions, rather than the other way 'round.

So the curse against Ham becomes clear that they would not follow the decrees of God, and so went and indulged in this blood drinking ritual, which is still present today among the black people of Africa, then added to this they further went and ate primates, and other animals that Yahweh said would defile people.

Not one bit of this paragraph is supported by your "scriptures"; to say nothing of having any basis in any reality (as has been pointed out to you multiple times).

Now I know I am repeating what I have said so often, then again you and others are bringing up the subject again—if it were possible to prove that the Bibles is not the true record that the Creator gave, then I could not have come up with this conclusion that is consistent with knowledge.

No, not at all. You decided to believe that the "scriptures" are true, despite any evidence; which is the reason that it makes sense (to you) that the "scriptures" must be true--whatever is observable in reality.

I am honestly willing to teach you--I do hope you will answer the two questions I posed to you so that we can get started.

 

[halleyscomet]

I do not agree,our bodies are magnificent when we are in peak condition--yes sickness is taking its victims.

Science disagrees with your opinion.

Take the Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve. From a Creationist point of view it makes no sense. The giraffe provides the most vibrant example of just how stupid a design decision it would be, but the same issues are present to a lesser degree in humans.

The Laryngeal Nerve of the Giraffe is Proof of Natural Selection

the pathway of this nerve is completely illogical — unless, of course, you accept that evolution is the reason for this nerve’s convoluted pathway through the body.

Laryngeal nerve

In biological homology, the laryngeal nerve can be spotted in a wide variety of animals, from fish to mammals. The structures around the nerve and the nerve itself are homologous to each other and so evolutionary theory postulates that animals evolve from others by distortions and changes in these structures. In fish, considered to be more evolutionarily primitive, the nerve heads straight from the brain, down to the larynx. However, in mammals, the structure of the head and development of the neck from fish-like organisms cause the recurrent laryngeal nerve to become "trapped" under the aortic arch in the thorax. Given a slow and gradual evolution from the biology of a fish to the biology of a mammal, there is no way for the nerve to magically jump from one side of the aortic arch to the other. And so, in mammals the nerve controlling the larynx first delves deep into the chest cavity and then finally up to the larynx.

This considerable detour is consistent with how embryological development entwines with evolution, but less consistent with the idea that organisms were made as they appear to day, individually by an intelligent designer.

This is just one example.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Now in order to do that I would have to follow the same route you have taken in consulting various studies.

So I will just have to find the appropriate study.
That would be determined by consulting a Biblical calendar.--- http://biblehub.com/timeline/

There were 600k fighting men above the age of twenty, so they who have done the mathematics believe that there were in access of two million people.

Now here is a Rabbi who gives some practical evidence, which is worth taking note of---
http://rabbimichaelsamuel.com/2010/03/how-many-israelites-actually-left-egypt/

You only did half of your first assignment:

What, in your opinion, is the date of ƴ ͤ fludde?

 

[halleyscomet]

I do not know where to find a counter argument--I can refer to what the Apologists say, but then you would have to take up the discussion with them.

So the man who claims a better understanding of scripture than anyone else, is conceding a major hurdle to Biblical accuracy to vague "apologists" who supposedly understand the Bible less perfectly than he.

If you actually understood scripture as perfectly as you claim, and it really did represent the perfect word of God, wouldn't you have an answer for this rather substantial problem?

 

[Slowvehicle]

I do not agree,our bodies are magnificent when we are in peak condition--yes sickness is taking its victims.

The human body is poorly-adapted from a quadrupedal frame.

The human body cannot synthesize vitamin C.

...and so forth...

 

[halleyscomet]

You see (hc) I do not see the need to answer your question because it has no relevance to me.
You can go on posing whatever questions you have. I do not have to submit to your interrogation, as far as being a liar you are completely and exceedingly wrong as you are with all your false accusations.

I want everyone to take not of this, as I think it's very important.

1. Paul Bethke claims to know better than anyone else what Biblical laws modern Christians are supposed to follow.
   
2. Paul Bethke claims that judgement and punishment is coming from God as a result of Christians not following all the laws God wants to see followed.
   
3. Paul Bethke is refusing to answer questions about what laws he does and does not follow claiming they have "no relevance" to him.

Take note of the major contradiction between point 3 and the preceding points.

How exactly is anyone supposed to KNOW what laws they're SUPPOSED to follow if the ONLY guy God has supposedly gifted with the "correct" interpretation of scripture refuses to answer questions about specific laws?

He has washed his hands of the entire line of inquiry. We haven't even gotten to the kosher, purity and ceremonial laws that don't rely upon the existence of a temple in Jerusalem, which are the ones most critical to Paul Bethke's claims.

Assuming Paul Bethke's claims have any basis in reality we're left with a deity who is either a petty jerk who wants to taunt people before punishing them for something they didn't even know was wrong, or singularly inept at choosing his prophets and missionaries.

 

[Craig B]

Now in order to do that I would have to follow the same route you have taken in consulting various studies.

So I will just have to find the appropriate study.
That would be determined by consulting a Biblical calendar.--- http://biblehub.com/timeline/

There were 600k fighting men above the age of twenty, so they who have done the mathematics believe that there were in access of two million people.

Now here is a Rabbi who gives some practical evidence, which is worth taking note of---
http://rabbimichaelsamuel.com/2010/03/how-many-israelites-actually-left-egypt/

The main point made by that Rabbi has been brought to your attention by me and others already. Two million people in the desert. Impossible, but if it happened, where are the bodies and the tombs or graves of the millions who died? Or as the Rabbi puts it

In terms of practical daily logistics, the size of the camp of the Israelites have posed considerable waste management problems (both for themselves and for their animals), presenting a real bio-hazzard for those encamped in close quarters. Remember: the Israelites did not enjoy the benefit of modern plumbing! In one settlement, Kadesh Barnea, the Israelites lived for 38 years (Deut. 1:46), there would most certainly be some strong archaeological evidence of such a large population (where an entire older generation died) having once lived there.​

So the bodies and graves of the dead, as well as the excrement of the living, and the dung of their flocks, are not to be found.

 

[Border Reiver]

Now in order to do that I would have to follow the same route you have taken in consulting various studies.

So I will just have to find the appropriate study.
That would be determined by consulting a Biblical calendar.--- http://biblehub.com/timeline/

Please explain how a calendar allows you to understand sedimentation rates, and other physical effects that the flood would have on the physical world.

There were 600k fighting men above the age of twenty, so they who have done the mathematics believe that there were in access of two million people.

Now here is a Rabbi who gives some practical evidence, which is worth taking note of---
http://rabbimichaelsamuel.com/2010/03/how-many-israelites-actually-left-egypt/

Did you read Rabbi Samuel's article? He's calling the figures of fighting men and people in general cited in Numbers to be unreasonable and impossible, citing the same lack of physical evidence that we have been.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I want everyone to take not of this, as it's very important.

1. Paul Bethke claims to know better than anyone else what Biblical laws modern Christians are supposed to follow.
   
2. Paul Bethke claims that judgement and punishment is coming from God as a result of Christians not following all the laws God wants to see followed.
   
3. Paul Bethke is refusing to answer questions about what laws he does and does not follow claiming they have "no relevance" to him.

Take note of the major contradiction between point 3 and the preceding points.

How exactly is anyone supposed to KNOW what laws they're SUPPOSED to follow if the ONLY guy God has supposedly gifted with the "correct" interpretation of scripture refuses to answer questions about specific laws?

He has washed his hands of the entire line of inquiry. We haven't even gotten to the kosher, purity and ceremonial laws that don't rely upon the existence of a temple in Jerusalem, which are the ones most critical to Paul Bethke's claims.

Assuming Paul Bethke's claims have any basis in reality we're left with a deity who is either a petty jerk who wants to taunt people before punishing them for something they didn't even know was wrong, or singularly inept at choosing his prophets and missionaries.

You are being very silly now---before any person can be evaluated for consideration for forgiveness, there is first and foremost the question regarding sanctified marriage.
Now if this is not passed then there is no reason to continue with the evaluation—we do not present people with the 613 Mitzvoth--- http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
There is as with the Jerusalem council two governing factors to qualify, there after a review of the teachings of Torah as to see what other commands can be introduced to strengthen the faith.( Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. ) So what does that entail, simply sexual purity and the dietary laws of Leviticus?
• So you cannot arbitrarily apply the 613 Mitzvot –there as you may not know various Mitvot that are taught there is not only one.
Each chief Rabbi will add his own version---so repentance is based on an acceptance of the two fundamental laws stipulated. The Decalogue is the basis of faith, so a comparison of a person past life is compared to the Decalogue.

So do not lie or steal is a consideration as was stipulated by the Apostles in conjunction with the teachings of Jesus and the prophets, and the Torah..—

Lev_19:11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive one another.
Col_3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Mat_19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Rom_13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbour as yourself."
Hos_4:2 There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
Rom_2:21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
Eph_4:28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

So you see what was accepted as the fundamental teachings are based on the Decalogue and not the 613 Mitzvot.

Now when the Kingdom of God is installed there will be the observation of the Sabbaths.
Then there is the penalty for crime which will be reintroduced.

So yes--let everybody take note!!

 

[Paul Bethke]

The main point made by that Rabbi has been brought to your attention by me and others already. Two million people in the desert. Impossible, but if it happened, where are the bodies and the tombs or graves of the millions who died? Or as the Rabbi puts it

In terms of practical daily logistics, the size of the camp of the Israelites have posed considerable waste management problems (both for themselves and for their animals), presenting a real bio-hazzard for those encamped in close quarters. Remember: the Israelites did not enjoy the benefit of modern plumbing! In one settlement, Kadesh Barnea, the Israelites lived for 38 years (Deut. 1:46), there would most certainly be some strong archaeological evidence of such a large population (where an entire older generation died) having once lived there.​

So the bodies and graves of the dead, as well as the excrement of the living, and the dung of their flocks, are not to be found.

Well you see I do not look at one aspect--I have considered all--but because there is a rejection of the Bible being used to explain that which may have occurred--I will have to leave it there.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Please explain how a calendar allows you to understand sedimentation rates, and other physical effects that the flood would have on the physical world.



Did you read Rabbi Samuel's article? He's calling the figures of fighting men and people in general cited in Numbers to be unreasonable and impossible, citing the same lack of physical evidence that we have been.

Did I not refer you to this, of course I read it and found it a good realistic approach.
The question was asked when did the event occur so I provided a Biblical calendar.

 

[halleyscomet]

You are being very silly now---before any person can be evaluated for consideration for forgiveness, there is first and foremost the question regarding sanctified marriage.
Now if this is not passed then there is no reason to continue with the evaluation—we do not present people with the 613 Mitzvoth--- http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
There is as with the Jerusalem council two governing factors to qualify, there after a review of the teachings of Torah as to see what other commands can be introduced to strengthen the faith.( Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. ) So what does that entail, simply sexual purity and the dietary laws of Leviticus?
• So you cannot arbitrarily apply the 613 Mitzvot –there as you may not know various Mitvot that are taught there is not only one.
Each chief Rabbi will add his own version---so repentance is based on an acceptance of the two fundamental laws stipulated. The Decalogue is the basis of faith, so a comparison of a person past life is compared to the Decalogue.

So do not lie or steal is a consideration as was stipulated by the Apostles in conjunction with the teachings of Jesus and the prophets, and the Torah..—

Lev_19:11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive one another.
Col_3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Mat_19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
Rom_13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbour as yourself."
Hos_4:2 There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
Rom_2:21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
Eph_4:28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

So you see what was accepted as the fundamental teachings are based on the Decalogue and not the 613 Mitzvot.

Now when the Kingdom of God is installed there will be the observation of the Sabbaths.
Then there is the penalty for crime which will be reintroduced.

So yes--let everybody take note!!

Which set of Ten Commandments do you mean? They vary from one denomination to another.

Kevin Sorbo vs the Ten Commandments

The first problem we encounter is that the Bible doesn't really contain the Ten Commandments as they're traditionally presented in Sunday School. The "Ten Commandments" that keep cropping up on courthouse walls and monuments on public land are an edited fusion of selections from Exodus chapter 20 and Deuteronomy chapter 5. Adding to the complexity is the fact that the ordering and wording chosen varies from one religious sect to another. The Wikpedia article on the Ten Commandments has an excellent table showing the most common variations

Regardless, if you reject the 613 Mitzvot you're rejecting all the kosher laws you claim Christians should follow. The 613 Mitzvot is just a listing of laws in the Old Testament.

You just claimed that there's no point in discussing the other laws until marriage is properly sanctified. If that's what you REALLY believe, then why are you going on about the kosher laws? It's as if you're trying to treat Christianity as a "mystery religion" where, like Scientology, you have to "level up" to "unlock" the next set of rules you need to follow.

 

[Border Reiver]

So yes--let everybody take note!!

That when called out on your refusal to answer direct questions directly, you will launch into a long explanation about why you shouldn't have to?

 

[Craig B]

Well you see I do not look at one aspect--I have considered all--but because there is a rejection of the Bible being used to explain that which may have occurred--I will have to leave it there.

Well give me your thinking on the particular aspect now being discussed. Not only the Bible, but evidence on and under the ground will tell us whether there were two million people living at Kadesh Barnea for 38 years, where they excreted each day, more or less, and then died, the whole generation of adults who left Egypt. There ought to be ample evidence for that assembly, easily the biggest concentration of people in the world in one place at that time. But there is none.

Now are you going to think about that? You are the one who said: what evidence could there be outside the Bible anyway, of such an event as Exodus. Well, we have indicated what evidence there not only could, but definitely would, be there to find if the story was true. But you say, I'll leave this there, because people are looking outside the Bible for material evidence which is what I challenged them to do!

But I didn't think they could do it, so now I'll go off in a huff, and take my Bible with me.

 

[halleyscomet]

Well you see I do not look at one aspect--I have considered all--but because there is a rejection of the Bible being used to explain that which may have occurred--I will have to leave it there.

So the Bible says it, so it MUST be true, reality and plausibility be damned.

Got ya.

Did I not refer you to this, of course I read it and found it a good realistic approach.

Ah, then you concede the Exodus story is not physically possible as described.

 

[halleyscomet]

But I didn't think they could do it, so now I'll go off in a huff, and take my Bible with me.

Now, now, don't rush. Take a minute and a huff.

(Joke shamelessly stolen from Groucho)