Erdogan's purge in Turkey

[Craig B]

Did I do that? Where?

Here.

History of Islam is riddled with these and other 'highly tolerant' actions

The city was not cleared of every non-Muslim if that's what you want to hear.

I wouldn't want to hear it if it wasn't true.

I fail to see how that argument makes the Ottoman empire tolerant. If you're considered tolerant as long as there's a single member of the offending religion still present in your lands there will be very, very, VERY few examples of non-tolerant states in history. I'm sure there was at least one Jew present in Spain at all times for example, so by the standard you applied to Ottoman Empire, late medieval and early modern Spain was tolerant.

I find this notion somewhat silly.

I'm sure prudent individual Jews (and Jewish communities which concealed their true religious affiliation) continued to exist in Spain. But they were continually sought by the Inquisition, and where detected, they were persecuted and, at best, expelled. However, Christians lived openly, if in a subordinate social situation, in most Muslim States, definitely including the Ottoman Empire and Persia.

 

[McHrozni]

Here.

I use single quotes to denote sarcasm, so yes?

I'm sure prudent individual Jews (and Jewish communities which concealed their true religious affiliation) continued to exist in Spain. But they were continually sought by the Inquisition, and where detected, they were persecuted and, at best, expelled. However, Christians lived openly, if in a subordinate social situation, in most Muslim States, definitely including the Ottoman Empire and Persia.

Moving the goalposts of what constitutes as tolerant state aside, what is your argument exactly? That leading Islamic states were more tolerant than the most repressive Christian states in history?
No one in the right mind is objecting to that. But your claim was that Islamic states in general were tolerant. Showing there was at least one example of a state less tolerant than leading Islamic states in their heyday doesn't prove that, or else North Korea proves [insert a modern country of choice here] is tolerant.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Until the 16th century most Chinese believed the Earth was flat. That had no effect on the shape of Earth whatsoever either.

Opinions and beliefs regarding the shape of the earth have no effect on that shape. But opinions and beliefs about the attitude to be adopted towards other faiths do indeed have an effect on the "shape" of a religious community. It is you who are saying that Christians are tolerant, and inclusive of non-Christians, as indeed most of them are. Are you proposing that this has no effect on the "shape" of Christianity? Has Christianity not changed - for the better - the very different "shape" it had when it promoted exclusiveness and intolerance?

 

[Tolls]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople#Plundering_phase

The city was not cleared of every non-Muslim if that's what you want to hear. I fail to see how that argument makes the Ottoman empire tolerant.

It was a medieval siege.
That's what happened in them.
Three days of pillage for the besieging army.

Sod all to do with whether they were a tolerant country in peace time or not.

 

[A'isha]

Your knowledge of Crusades is severely lacking

The accounts of the Crusaders and especially the accounts of priests who accompanied the soldiers are filled with paens to martyrdom in battle with the "Turks", such as Peter Tudebode who wrote of one battle during the First Crusade, "More than one thousand knights or footmen martyred on that day rose joyfully to heaven and, bearing the stole of customary white-robed martyrdom, glorified and praised our triune God in whom they happily triumphed."

and the article you posted is under a paywall. Try again please.

Funny, it works just fine for me.

Certainly. It's the only one that claims national sovereignty like ISIS though.

ISIS claims national sovereignty because no Muslim state will claim them, and ISIS themselves are violently against all of those other Muslim states.

Northern Crusades began some 550 years after Egypt fell to Muslim invaders. How wide is your net of "around the same time" anyway?

Narrow than yours, which extended all the way up to 1453.

Nope, because they were repressed under Islamic rule for so long, which bred frustration and hate of anything foreign.

You know, kind of what is currently used as an excuse for Islamic terrorism these days? People look at Muslims with distrust, which drives them to commit violent acts against the infidels.
Now replace "looking at you with distrust" to "daily humiliation of a life as second-class citizen", and you can clearly see that Spain could've turned far, far worse than it did.

Your little "theory" has a couple of fatal flaws.

First of all, the Reconquista (and the expulsion edicts that resulted) came not from Christians inside al-Andalus, but Christian states outside it that had never been ruled by Muslims. Christians within al-Andalus and on the borders had no problem fighting for Muslim rulers even against the Christian states outside Muslim territory (and, indeed, it was common for the patchwork Muslim and Christian states to ally with one another against other Muslim and Christian states which had also allied with each other). Even the great hero of the Reconquista Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar, lionized by the Spanish as El Cid, spent six years in the service of the Muslim rulers of Zaragoza, fighting against the Christian King Sancho I of Aragon and Ramon Berenguer II, Count of Barcelona (even holding the latter captive for ransom for his Muslim master).

Second of all, your idea that the Spanish Christians killed and expelled the Muslims in the territories they conquered because the Muslim rulers treated them poorly doesn't explain why the Spanish Christians expelled and killed the Jews in those territories as well.

 

[Craig B]

I use single quotes to denote sarcasm, so yes?

Yes what? I didn't use the expression you were being sarcastic about anyway. I wrote, much more soberly, that

In fact, tolerance, though not equality, was a feature of official religious practice in the Ottoman Empire, more than elsewhere in Europe.

 

[malbec]

Erdogan's fear of Fethullah Gulen , his webs and intrigues , and the CIA seem to have reached an unbelievable level .
But what exactly went wrong with the US coup ?
Was it that badly planned and executed , or , is it more likely -- as some experts believe -- that it was just a " dry run " ? .
If the latter , I cannot see its point .

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

If it was US/CIA coup it wouldn't have failed. It failed, ergo . . .

 

[The Don]

Erdogan's fear of Fethullah Gulen , his webs and intrigues , and the CIA seem to have reached an unbelievable level .
But what exactly went wrong with the US coup ?Was it that badly planned and executed , or , is it more likely -- as some experts believe -- that it was just a " dry run " ? .
If the latter , I cannot see its point .

Which US coup was this

 

[malbec]

If it was US/CIA coup it wouldn't have failed. It failed, ergo . . .

You need to distinguish between , Deep State , US and CIA .
In general terms , most things emanating from that part of the world fail . In fact I cannot think of one that succeeded .
But this coup barely lasted several hours .
Bring back Dick Chaney I say . Or , drag Bush senior out of his dotage .

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

This is what I said, yes. The question which you dodged was why is it like this? Why can't you guys just say "these stories are fake and will no longer be part of our sacred texts"?

<snip>

Who are "you guys"? Is there a Vatican of Islam? A Pope?

Who are you expecting to speak as a unified voice of all of Islam.

Even the Catholics can't pull that off. Their various branches can't even agree on a common calendar, or even who to honor on which days.

Ask this question of the Protestant "you guys". Who do you will expect to answer?

What do you think the answer from inerrant Fundamentalist Christians would be?

How about the Southern Baptist Convention, which actually is a central authority to its membership, a membership which is in excess of 15 million in the U.S. alone, second only to the Catholic Church? This does not include the Baptists who splintered off from the SBC because it wasn't Fundamentalist enough, or the Fundamentalists who were never happy with the excess of Baptist permissiveness to begin with.

What do you suppose their answer to your question would be? Which of them would you ask?

 

[malbec]

Which US coup was this

I suspect that one might also have slipped by you .
To get you started , go back to 96/97 when the CIA let multi billionaire Gulen settle happily in the States and when they resisted all attempts at extradition .
He is a huge asset . Just the sort to obtain regime change via proxy .
A bit too tricksy and rude for the MSM .

 

[The Don]

I suspect that one might also have slipped by you .
To get you started , go back to 96/97 when the CIA let multi billionaire Gulen settle happily in the States and when they resisted all attempts at extradition .
He is a huge asset . Just the sort to obtain regime change via proxy .
A bit too tricksy and rude for the MSM .

OK so the usual evidence-free conspiracy nonsense....

 

[malbec]

OK so the usual evidence-free conspiracy nonsense....

No . From actual News sources that are freely available -- ones which you cannot be bothered to acquaint yourself with .
I notice with distaste the fashion for labelling as CT anything which you and others simply are unaware of .

 

[The Don]

No . From actual News sources that are freely available -- ones which you cannot be bothered to acquaint yourself with .
I notice with distaste the fashion for labelling as CT anything which you and others simply are unaware of .

Labeling the recent coup as a U.S. coup is lacking in evidence.

Do you have any reliable evidence of U.S. involvement ?

 

[quadraginta]

That's enormously far from truth. Christian Church and state were two separate institutions from the onset. The Church did try to take over state functions from time to time, but if that's "fusion" you'd also have to call 17th century Europe "unified" - a ludicrous proposition.

<snip>

"From time to time"???

World's most egregious understatement?

It's obvious you have no interest in being taken seriously.

That's one heck of a set of blinders you keep wearing. I'm surprised you can see anything at all.

Oh, wait. You can't.

As Paul Simon pointed out; "... man sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest."

 

[malbec]

Labeling the recent coup as a U.S. coup is lacking in evidence.

Do you have any reliable evidence of U.S. involvement ?

Obviously , and two and two still make more than four .
But MSM addicts are not going to use their laziness as a means of me helping them to dress themselves .

And suddenly I have realised I have lost the will to live here . It is not just you . The whole place is full of tired , old and sick people who are half wits .
That should get me banned permanently . Like shooting a wounded animal to put it out of acute pain .

 

[FenerFan]

I suspect that one might also have slipped by you .
To get you started , go back to 96/97 when the CIA let multi billionaire Gulen settle happily in the States and when they resisted all attempts at extradition .
He is a huge asset . Just the sort to obtain regime change via proxy .
A bit too tricksy and rude for the MSM .

Not even close. Gülen didn't emigrate to the US until 1999 and Turkey has not requested extradition until now. Also, he is not a "multi-billionaire."
I know I'm just a half-wit, please enlighten me as to what's really going on in Turkey.

 

[The Don]

Obviously , and two and two still make more than four .
But MSM addicts are not going to use their laziness as a means of me helping them to dress themselves .

Sounds like the very essence of a conspiracy theory. Take a small amount of weak evidence and spin it into a tall tale.

Your only evidence appears to be that the United States has so far refused to extradite someone when there hasn't yet been a formal request for extradition.

 

[crescent]

Turkey Suspends Human Rights Treaty After Failed Coup Attempt

Turkish authorities have announced they will temporarily stop abiding by the European Convention on Human Rights, arguing that “during times of war or serious public emergency” countries can act outside their obligations as long as they do not violate international laws.

Here in the west, there is seems to be a general sense of dismay over the whole series of events. It was not good to attempt a coup, but Erdogan's reaction to the coup is perhaps even worse.

In the Arab world, however, the coup and the events following it seem to have made Erdogan more popular. The defeat of the coup is seen as a win for democracy.

Turkey's failed coup: In Arab world, the rulers and the ruled react differently

News of President Erdoğan’s victory was met with celebration in large parts of the Arab world. From late Friday through Saturday afternoon, drivers in Arab capitals kept their ears to the radio, and shopkeeper kept their eyes glued to television screens, witnessing what many believed to be the unthinkable: a democratically-elected Islamist facing down a military coup – and winning.

For many Egyptians, Erdoğan’s victory was akin to witnessing “what could have been,” three years after their own military rose up against Mohammed Morsi, the democratically elected Islamist president. Unlike in Turkey, rival Egyptian political groups – including leftists – sided with the military and backed the coup, leading to the military regime that is now suppressing those very democratic forces.

“The [Muslim] Brotherhood made many mistakes, but we should have found another way to force them out,” Hassan Mohammed, a Cairo shopkeeper, says in a telephone interview.