Ancient Egyptian drill holes question

Just to add, some of that is also intentional. The more sophisticated designs, like making sure the sword isn't just pattern welded, but has a core of mild steel laminated between layers of high carbon steel, or whatnot, were very labour intensive and VERY expensive. You couldn't even sell only those, just like todays you couldn't have everyone driving a Ferrari. So there was a whole spectrum of models produced, from the lowest end model being just made from a bar of mild steel, all the way to the layered and laminated things I just described.

The swords issued to retainers tended to be the cheapest and simplest models, and doubly so for ashigaru. Those guys often even got some rusty antique dug off some battlefield. If you wanted anything better than that, well, you had to buy your own weapon, and not everyone could afford a Masamune or similar masterpiece.
 
HansMustermann said:
Just to add, some of that is also intentional. The more sophisticated designs, like making sure the sword isn't just pattern welded, but has a core of mild steel laminated between layers of high carbon steel, or whatnot, were very labour intensive and VERY expensive. You couldn't even sell only those, just like todays you couldn't have everyone driving a Ferrari. So there was a whole spectrum of models produced, from the lowest end model being just made from a bar of mild steel, all the way to the layered and laminated things I just described.

The swords issued to retainers tended to be the cheapest and simplest models, and doubly so for ashigaru. Those guys often even got some rusty antique dug off some battlefield. If you wanted anything better than that, well, you had to buy your own weapon, and not everyone could afford a Masamune or similar masterpiece.
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Exactly so. Which helps add to the mystery/mystic of the higher end blades, especially when the process for turning iron into steel is reasonably unknown. It seems like magic, and thus cutting a slab of granite becomes "possible" in the mythology. This also adds prestige to the owners of those weapons, while putting even more demand on the makers, and upping their asking price!
 
And of those who had a sword, not everyone could afford a genuine Ulfberht. Yeah, I get that.

I'm not saying there's something more special about japanese swords than about Norse swords. If anything, the Japanese were actually NOT making up the kind of stuff about cutting through anvils and whatnot that Europeans did. The Japanese were more like obsessed with sharpness, so the stories were more along the lines of the sword cutting a butterfly that lands on its edge or a leaf floating in a river or such.

The stories about katanas cutting through steel are more like WW2 material. And funnily, some of the officer katanas there were actually the "kaigunto" naval officer sword, which were made of untempered stainless steel. So, you know, about as mystical as the cheapest supermarket wall-hanger :p
 
arthwollipot said:
And during Viking times, most people wouldn't have a sword anyway. Most would be armed with a spear, an axe, and a seax.
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Yep. All of which needed less metal, and could be made on the cheap!

HansMustermann said:
And of those who had a sword, not everyone could afford a genuine Ulfberht. Yeah, I get that.
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Sorry, totally wasn't arguing with you. I have little doubt you know much more about this subject than I do. In fact, I was agreeing and tacking on what little I know and find interesting. :D

I'm not saying there's something more special about japanese swords than about Norse swords. If anything, the Japanese were actually NOT making up the kind of stuff about cutting through anvils and whatnot that Europeans did. The Japanese were more like obsessed with sharpness, so the stories were more along the lines of the sword cutting a butterfly that lands on its edge or a leaf floating in a river or such.
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Yep, that's where we get the legend of Muramasa challenging his master Masamune. It's all leaves and grass floating past the blades and being cut to bits.

The stories about katanas cutting through steel are more like WW2 material. And funnily, some of the officer katanas there were actually the "kaigunto" naval officer sword, which were made of untempered stainless steel. So, you know, about as mystical as the cheapest supermarket wall-hanger :p
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And sad stories of swords being tested by owners who believed the stories, only to find out they had ruined a very good sword when it didn't accomplish the impossible. :(

arthwollipot said:
I've got a friend with one of those. It's a real POS sword, but it holds a lot of sentimental value for him.
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A friend of mine got a katana for me, but I'm pretty certain she was taken. The seller said it was an "old" blade, but couldn't tell her anything else. Alas, the mekuki peg appears to be a rivet and welded to the handle, and there isn't much of a hamon at all that I can see. It might be an old ceremonial sword, but it wasn't what my friend wanted to get me.
 
Sounds like possibly a kodachi to me. About half-way through the Edo period, civilians got allowed a blade for work or (especially for merchants and other travellers) self-defense, as long as it wasn't longer than 1.7 shaku (1 shaku is almost exactly 1 ft) and wasn't fixed to the handle with removable mekugi.

There are a lot of those, and they show a LOT more variability than samurai/ashigaru gear. A lot indeed aren't differentially forged, so they don't have a hamon line. Others do.

Also note that swords made during the Sengoku Jidai (or earlier at the end of the Genpei war, or right after the mongolian invasion, but something THAT old would probably be a rare find) have a very faint hamon, and generally without the large sparkling crystals in the hamon of later new-new-swords. Those actually have an edge of TEMPERED martensite, because if you get the heat flow just right, it quenches directly to tempered martensite instead of the brittle martensite of the later new-new-swords with wide beautiful hamons. The upside is that these things were made for war, and that edge isn't brittle at all, unlike those later new-new-swords.

Mind you, it still won't cut through steel or anything, but at least the edge didn't shatter if you hit another sword or a piece of armour.

In any case, without actually seeing it, it's hard to tell exactly which it is, if any.
 
HansMustermann said:
Sounds like possibly a kodachi to me. About half-way through the Edo period, civilians got allowed a blade for work or (especially for merchants and other travellers) self-defense, as long as it wasn't longer than 1.7 shaku (1 shaku is almost exactly 1 ft) and wasn't fixed to the handle with removable mekugi.

There are a lot of those, and they show a LOT more variability than samurai/ashigaru gear. A lot indeed aren't differentially forged, so they don't have a hamon line. Others do.

Also note that swords made during the Sengoku Jidai (or earlier at the end of the Genpei war, or right after the mongolian invasion, but something THAT old would probably be a rare find) have a very faint hamon, and generally without the large sparkling crystals in the hamon of later new-new-swords. Those actually have an edge of TEMPERED martensite, because if you get the heat flow just right, it quenches directly to tempered martensite instead of the brittle martensite of the later new-new-swords with wide beautiful hamons. The upside is that these things were made for war, and that edge isn't brittle at all, unlike those later new-new-swords.

Mind you, it still won't cut through steel or anything, but at least the edge didn't shatter if you hit another sword or a piece of armour.
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Oh, thank you. That's interesting in relation to this sword. I'd vote that my friend was more likely taken, than she found a truly rare sword, but . . .

In any case, without actually seeing it, it's hard to tell exactly which it is, if any.
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Yep. I'd considered taking it in, but where it didn't meet most of the hallmarks, I didn't think it was worthwhile. Given this, I might just shell out for someone to review the sword and give me an opinion!
 
The stories about katanas cutting through steel are more like WW2 material. And funnily, some of the officer katanas there were actually the "kaigunto" naval officer sword, which were made of untempered stainless steel. So, you know, about as mystical as the cheapest supermarket wall-hanger :p
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NCO and officer swords are still extant in the modern US military. My sister walked down the aisle beneath at least a dozen swords held by uniformed AF officers in her wedding at the Academy Chapel. During a change of command ceremony series for my Guard unit, they handed off a sword - departing 1st SGT to his Captain, handing off to the incoming Captain, passing the buck down to his incoming 1st SGT. I've seen better steel in fantasy pawnshop swords with glass-eyed-dragon handles. It has an NSN, though.
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
NCO and officer swords are still extant in the modern US military. My sister walked down the aisle beneath at least a dozen swords held by uniformed AF officers in her wedding at the Academy Chapel. During a change of command ceremony series for my Guard unit, they handed off a sword - departing 1st SGT to his Captain, handing off to the incoming Captain, passing the buck down to his incoming 1st SGT. I've seen better steel in fantasy pawnshop swords with glass-eyed-dragon handles. It has an NSN, though.
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Oh, very much so. Just, well, those tend not to be hyped as able to cut through machinegun barrels and such. I wasn't talking smack about the kaigunto per se, but only in relation to that kind of legends about katanas in the WW2.
 
RobRoy said:
Oh, thank you. That's interesting in relation to this sword. I'd vote that my friend was more likely taken, than she found a truly rare sword, but . . .
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Well, I think the seller should be the one showing some kind of paper from an expert. Otherwise, yeah, they may very well be BS-ing you. I was just geeking out about history, not saying you should buy it.

In any case, probably the easiest way to see if it's NOT a kodachi is to just measure the blade. If it's 1'9" or longer, it's definitely not. I mean, it would get you killed as a civilian if it measured more than 1.7 shaku and someone actually got ye olde measuring rod out.
 
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Jrrarglblarg said:
NCO and officer swords are still extant in the modern US military. My sister walked down the aisle beneath at least a dozen swords held by uniformed AF officers in her wedding at the Academy Chapel. During a change of command ceremony series for my Guard unit, they handed off a sword - departing 1st SGT to his Captain, handing off to the incoming Captain, passing the buck down to his incoming 1st SGT. I've seen better steel in fantasy pawnshop swords with glass-eyed-dragon handles. It has an NSN, though.
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HansMustermann said:
Oh, very much so. Just, well, those tend not to be hyped as able to cut through machinegun barrels and such. I wasn't talking smack about the kaigunto per se, but only in relation to that kind of legends about katanas in the WW2.
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Definitely for ceremonial use only. Not that you couldn't stab through flesh, but it would have to be a lucky thrust not to break anything on the saber. (Even at USMA they are called sabers even though they have no curve).
 
HansMustermann said:
Well, I think the seller should be the one showing some kind of paper from an expert. Otherwise, yeah, they may very well be BS-ing you. I was just geeking out about history, not saying you should buy it.
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Agreed. Aforementioned friend simply bought the sword as a gift. She did not pursue any proof of authenticity, and the seller didn't offer anything beyond "It's old." I accepted the gift graciously and have not made any kind of fuss over it. :D

In any case, probably the easiest way to see if it's NOT a kodachi is to just measure the blade. If it's 1'9" or longer, it's definitely not. I mean, it would get you killed as a civilian if it measured more than 1.7 shaku and someone actually got ye olde measuring rod out.
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Will do!
 
Garrette said:
Definitely for ceremonial use only. Not that you couldn't stab through flesh, but it would have to be a lucky thrust not to break anything on the saber. (Even at USMA they are called sabers even though they have no curve).
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It's not an USMA thing only. Infantry sabres in the 18'th and 19'th century routinely had very little to no curve. The 1786 and 1796 pattern British Infantry Officer's Sword were routinely called a sabre, but had a straight spadroon blade. The 1822 and 1845 gothic-hilt patterns had a VERY slight curvature, and the 1892 pattern returns to a very straight blade again. Plus, from 1827 officers were allowed to buy their own swords, as long as the hilt was the regulation one, and a lot of the infantry officers went for straight swords.

Heck, even a lot of the _cavalry_ officers' "sabres" of that age are straight, and a few are even double edged. Though one must say, less often than the infantry sabres.
 
arthwollipot said:
And during Viking times, most people wouldn't have a sword anyway. Most would be armed with a spear, an axe, and a seax.
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Isn't a seaxe a type of sword? It looks likes a curved scimitar with a nick near the business end. That would make it a sword, surely?
 
HansMustermann said:
It's not an USMA thing only. Infantry sabres in the 18'th and 19'th century routinely had very little to no curve. The 1786 and 1796 pattern British Infantry Officer's Sword were routinely called a sabre, but had a straight spadroon blade. The 1822 and 1845 gothic-hilt patterns had a VERY slight curvature, and the 1892 pattern returns to a very straight blade again. Plus, from 1827 officers were allowed to buy their own swords, as long as the hilt was the regulation one, and a lot of the infantry officers went for straight swords.

Heck, even a lot of the _cavalry_ officers' "sabres" of that age are straight, and a few are even double edged. Though one must say, less often than the infantry sabres.
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Interesting stuff. Didn't most ACW cavalry sabers actually curve, perhaps not as much as a scimitar but pronounced enough to be easily noticeable?

Without claiming any expertise I would suspect that such a curve would provide some benefit in the saddle.
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
NCO and officer swords are still extant in the modern US military. My sister walked down the aisle beneath at least a dozen swords held by uniformed AF officers in her wedding at the Academy Chapel. During a change of command ceremony series for my Guard unit, they handed off a sword - departing 1st SGT to his Captain, handing off to the incoming Captain, passing the buck down to his incoming 1st SGT. I've seen better steel in fantasy pawnshop swords with glass-eyed-dragon handles. It has an NSN, though.
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And a meaningless nitpick here: It was likely cadets and not officers who formed the saber arch.

The passing of the saber during the change of command is interesting. When I both assumed and relinquished command it was through passing the guidon, which was the practice in every CoC ceremony I ever participated in or saw.
 
MikeG said:
Isn't a seaxe a type of sword? It looks likes a curved scimitar with a nick near the business end. That would make it a sword, surely?
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It is the word for knife so not really. Though that dividing line can be confusing.
 
British forces don't have any 'sabres' they are all Swords.
There are 28 of them on the books at the moment.
My favourite is the 1908 pattern Cavalry Sword. Centuries of experience and development went in too it and it came in to service just too late for serious use. It has a pistol grip and the blade is long and dlim, designed for skewering as well as slashing, it replaced the lance. There are two versions, Troopers and Officers. Not to be confused with the Household Cavalry sword, they still use the heavy 1892 pattern sword, it looks more ornate for state occasions.
Royal Artillery Swords are based on the old Light Cavelry Pattern and have a slight curve and Generals Swords are highly curved with an Indian Pattern hilt.
Buy one from Pooleys of Sheffield http://pooleysword.com/en/Military_Swords
or Crisp and Sons http://www.crisp-and-sons.com/aboutus.htm

My dad has an old Wilkinson Royal Navy Officers Sword.
 
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Garrette said:
And a meaningless nitpick here: It was likely cadets and not officers who formed the saber arch.

The passing of the saber during the change of command is interesting. When I both assumed and relinquished command it was through passing the guidon, which was the practice in every CoC ceremony I ever participated in or saw.
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Well, if you wanna get all technical it was the CoR, when the first shirt hands off Responsibility. The saber symbolizes what the 1SG holds for his Commander. I didn't want to get into the weeds because most people don't care.

The guidon is the commander handoff, symbolizing the unit as a whole.
 
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