Split Thread Signs of the End Times

[Paul Bethke]

Are you declaring yourself to be an athiest with regard to their unproven gods?

Not at all—what I am referring to is the customs that are practiced by those who believe in their traditions, these are contrary to the precepts in the Torah.

Right. Just as the torah withered the grass at the 2010 World Cup.Your faith. None other. And yours is a fantasy like all of the rest of them.

Well that is to be seen, the scene is being set for something more spectacular, induced by my faith..

 

[Paul Bethke]

I did say anything about having sex with a woman who is married. How is having sex with a virgin if both parties consent diabolical?

You made the mistake in not reading the full statement I made, like on so many other occasions—I said that having sex with a virgin and not remaining with her is diabolical.

To have sex with a virgin is to make her your wife—so if the man does not continue as her husband that is diabolical!

So in that case they will be committing adultery if they go off and marry someone else—that is diabolical!

 

[Paul Bethke]

Oddly enough, the passage does not mention "interracial" marriage...

It mentions the customs and practices of these people as being contrary to the injunctions of the Torah.
So the blacks in Africa and South Africa are still steeped in these practices. So therefore on the same grounds as Israel “we the whites” are justified in not marrying with them.

Which (surprise!) also does not, in any way, mention "interracial" marriage...
1. What do you mean, "we"?
2. The "injunctions" to which you pretend are not "of the Torah".{/quote]
They most certainly are as I mentioned above—we recognise this by studying Torah.
(Deu 18:9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.
Deu 18:10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
Deu 18:11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.
Deu 18:12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
Deu 18:13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

I wonder what you mean by "complete the program". Is that like the "final solution"?
ETA: I have been on the road all day--many have capably made the same points...ninjas abound!

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with moderator directive

The complete program would mean the Kingdom of God as supreme---as Jesus said---Mat_6:33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
First establish the Kingdom of God with all the justice that God requires---THEN.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I don't have any idea why you're preaching. You are aware that far from "knowing all these things" I think that your use of the Bible is completely nonsensical. As I have stated, you seem to regard the Sxriptures as a compendium of magic spells, rather than a source of information about the thinking of people who lived long ago.

They may have lived eons ago but the knowledge and the wisdom stays the same, as people have not changed, they still commit the same sins.

 

[Thor 2]

Hello Paul,

I am intrigued by your iron clad faith and wonder how you came to be where you are. Could I prompt you to visit the "Turning Point" thread and give us a rundown on how you got there?

 

[abaddon]

Not at all—what I am referring to is the customs that are practiced by those who believe in their traditions, these are contrary to the precepts in the Torah.

You believe in Zeus?

Well that is to be seen, the scene is being set for something more spectacular, induced by my faith..

And we have seen your failure and false prophecy.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

You made the mistake in not reading the full statement I made, like on so many other occasions—I said that having sex with a virgin and not remaining with her is diabolical.

To have sex with a virgin is to make her your wife—so if the man does not continue as her husband that is diabolical!

So in that case they will be committing adultery if they go off and marry someone else—that is diabolical!

Very well, a simple request for clarification then. Recently a number of cases came in the news of men kidnapping schoolgirls, keeping them locked up for years, raping them and eventually after years being caught.
At the time of kidnapping the girls were virgins and thus according to your rules, they are now married.
Do the girls become immoral if they seek a non-kidnapping rapist to live with for the rest of their lives?
Should the girls just have accepted this forever and not seeking freedom as these happened to be their first sexual encounters?
In fact, would in your utopia this even be considered rape after the first time? After all, you claim that once married it becomes impossible to be raped.

Don't get me wrong, I find this line of reasoning reprehensible and wrong, but I see nothing there out of line of what you claim.

 

[Craig4]

You made the mistake in not reading the full statement I made, like on so many other occasions—I said that having sex with a virgin and not remaining with her is diabolical.

To have sex with a virgin is to make her your wife—so if the man does not continue as her husband that is diabolical!

So in that case they will be committing adultery if they go off and marry someone else—that is diabolical!

Again, your god needs to learn his place. Whether or not to remain together is a decision for the two people who had sex. It's none of your god's business. He needs to stop peeking through bedroom windows.

 

[turingtest]

It appears that, in Paul's ideology, the only properly ordered society is a fearful one; and, since religion is the wielder of the ultimate threat, theocracy (a Christian brand, of course) is the only proper government.

I always wondered how Christians could reconcile loving a god with the fear they are also supposed to feel for him. Paul's theology resolves that nicely- since he identifies with the god at the top of his hierarchy, the fear is for everyone else to feel and the love is all for himself to gather and enjoy miser-like; the theology of masturbation.

 

[Pixel42]

Is a virgin girl who is raped by her father then married to him?

Just asking.

 

[Craig B]

They may have lived eons ago but the knowledge and the wisdom stays the same, as people have not changed, they still commit the same sins.

They have gained in knowledge, understanding and also moral virtues. The rulers of ancient times, and their gods, were mostly psychopaths. And we have some new sins. The Scriptures have a lot to say about stealing sheep, but nothing about forging banknotes, because the latter he not been invented when the Bible was written.

 

[Paul Bethke]

They have gained in knowledge, understanding and also moral virtues. The rulers of ancient times, and their gods, were mostly psychopaths. And we have some new sins. The Scriptures have a lot to say about stealing sheep, but nothing about forging banknotes, because the latter he not been invented when the Bible was written.

The Scriptures speak of the fact that a person must not lie or bear false evidence—this certainly would be applied with regards to forgery—do not steal can also be applied.

Besides man has a law that outlaws such actions.-- Lev_19:36 Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.
Deu_25:15 You must have accurate and honest weights and measures, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
So there is ample laws that can be applied.

Most certainly our knowledge has increased, but not our morality, there are still murders, rapes and stealing.

 

[Border Reiver]

Well then there must not be a relaxing of fear, otherwise as you say, the people will rebel.

Obviously Yahweh cannot provide good leadership and no one wants to follow him, if he can only gain the following of people by fear. Allow me to demonstrate why Yahweh is a poor leader using the 10 Principles of Leadership as defined by the Canadian Forces:

1. Achieve professional competence.

Yahweh: People wrote down a claim that He created the world in 6 days, said claims classify bats as being birds and further claim that insects have 4 legs.

While creating the universe is an impressive claim, classifying bats as birds and then following on with claiming that insects have 4 legs when simple observation shows that its wrong definitely makes one doubt the competence of the being making the claim.

2. Appreciate your own strengths and limitations while pursuing self-improvement.

Yahweh: Bible claims that he is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, while simultaneously requiring that we accept that he has a rival seeking to thwart his plans and goals. Paul Bethke, you've claimed that Yahweh HAS to wait for the right moment and the right person to act. The gap between the two claims is what we call a credibility gap.

Obviously the deity has limitations, but his followers claim he doesn't have any. The contradiction leads us to believe that Yahweh is putting up a front.

3. Seek and accept responsibility.

Yahweh: World is apparently not working the way he wants it to - solution is to flood it, destroy everything and start over.

An allegedly omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being can't get it right the first time and seeks to hide his error by destroying all the evidence? Not sure if Yahweh is seeking and accepting responsibility for his actions - if he's not prepared to actually fix his broken toys....

4. Lead by example.

Yahweh: The various contradictions between what is claimed to be proper behaviour in the OT and what Yahweh sanctions lead one to believe that Yahweh is more of a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of deity.

5. Make sure that your followers know your meaning and intent, then lead them to the accomplishment of the mission.

Yahweh: Doesn't issue clear instructions - the whole differing interpretations of marriage thing is an excellent example. Mr. Bethke claims that the Bible is very clear that marriage is sex and that it's a one man/one woman deal. Yet the bible very clearly indicates that Yahweh is ok with polygamy and that divorce is permissible. There are the two different listings of the 10 commandments, there are the differing genealogies of Jesus and the differing accounts of creation.

Someone's not giving clear and unambiguous direction and I don't think its me...

6. Know your soldiers and promote their welfare.

Yahweh: Job, let me take away your family and everything you worked for all your life to prove a point. You're ok with that?

7. Develop the leadership potential of your followers.

Yahweh is constantly hammering at people to obey, obey, obey. And reminding them that anything good that they have is solely due to his providence. That is not conducive to anything but creating mindless slaves.

8. Make sound and timely decisions.

Yahweh: The end times are coming soon. This is a prediction made nearly 2,000 years ago. This is not "soon" regardless of what language you use.

9. Train your soldiers as a team and employ them up to their capabilities.

Yahweh is (as presently understood) a one deity show.

10. Keep your followers informed of the mission, the changing situation and the overall picture.

Yahweh's demonstrated behaviour is erratic, he doesn't give clear direction and tries to limit people's understanding of events and natural phenomena and also tries to limit social structures to that of a less technologically and scientifically advanced period in history.

We can see that Yahweh is a failure as a leader. If He can only get my obedience through fear of consequences that, so far as can be observed, will not actually occur, then this deity is unworthy of our respect.

 

[halleyscomet]

I know what kidnapping is so what is your point







That is correct—but what has that got to do with me.







That is so—but what has that to do with me?







That is what you say but you have got all things mixed up.







I have responded, so what is your problem. I have answered all the question put to me. I am not afraid of answering any question that is appropriate to the topic. You have deviated from what is the topic and have made me the centre of your focus.



There is absolutely no way that you can discredit me I am blameless in all respects.

I am not a liar, nor a false prophet as I have always referred to the Scriptures as the source of what I proclaim. You may not like my emphasis, but that is still what is true to the Scriptures.



Now even if I were false which I am not—the Scriptures are still the means of proclaiming the truth.

Have you ever kidnapped anyone? Why are you so afraid of answering that question?

I explained why I'm asking you the question yet you refuse to answer with a simple "yes" or "no." You then have the audacity to lie and claim you've answered all the questions that have been put to you.

Why do you lie about having answered questions in the very post where you are dodging a question that has been put to you repeatedly?

Did you notice that the moderators have not objected to me calling you a liar? That's not persecution or bias, that's a simple statement of fact that anyone reading the thread can see. You lie, repeatedly, and your claim of being "blameless" is a whopper.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Is a virgin girl who is raped by her father then married to him?

Just asking.

First look at the law of the land it is rape a crime that carries a penalty—from the Torah, a man who has done such a despicable thing should be put to death.
One can put it this way, I married my daughter, but that is not recognised. A father who does this is surely not marrying his daughter, but raping her.
I know of a few cases where this has taken place, but the government does not apply the death sentence, so the daughter is not set free from this disgrace.

(Lev 19:29 "'Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness. )

http://www.ndtv.com/topic/father-rapes-daughter

 

[Paul Bethke]

Have you ever kidnapped anyone? Why are you so afraid of answering that question?

I explained why I'm asking you the question yet you refuse to answer with a simple "yes" or "no." You then have the audacity to lie and claim you've answered all the questions that have been put to you.

Why do you lie about having answered questions in the very post where you are dodging a question that has been put to you repeatedly?

Did you notice that the moderators have not objected to me calling you a liar? That's not persecution or bias, that's a simple statement of fact that anyone reading the thread can see. You lie, repeatedly, and your claim of being "blameless" is a whopper.

You see (hc) I do not see the need to answer your question because it has no relevance to me.
You can go on posing whatever questions you have. I do not have to submit to your interrogation, as far as being a liar you are completely and exceedingly wrong as you are with all your false accusations.

 

[halleyscomet]

Eight year olds need to know the truth.

For example:

There are sociopaths and narcissists who will use religion to try and control him. (Not necessarily a reference to anyone here, but religious leaders in general)

There are people willing to kill and / or oppress others over their preferred mythology. Such people are degenerate monsters, regardless of which mythology they profess, and must be opposed.

Anyone who prophesies that God will wilt the grass at a specific event has been proven a false prophet when the grass doesn't wilt. Any subsequent prophesies they make are to be laughed at as obvious lies. Their excuses are equally deserving of ridicule.

Wilting grass and making an old man go blind aren't miracles, they're educated guesses that have a decent probability of happening anyway. Such low-risk "predictions" are a staple of psychics, mediums, televangelists and other bottom feeding con artists.

 

[halleyscomet]

You see (hc) I do not see the need to answer your question because it has no relevance to me.

You can go on posing whatever questions you have. I do not have to submit to your interrogation, as far as being a liar you are completely and exceedingly wrong as you are with all your false accusations.

So you refuse to be tested.

Oh well. I'll have to extrapolate and then publish my results.

36Ex. 20:14 — Not to testify falsely — Yemenite->Ex. 20:13

This one hinges on two variables.

1. Are you as dishonest / disconnected from reality on the stand as you are in this thread.

2. Is the "testify" in this example limited to court cases or does it include "testifying for the lord" as one does when preaching?

I'd like to get some feedback in the thread from people with a better grasp of ancient tongues than I have.

 

[Border Reiver]

First look at the law of the land it is rape a crime that carries a penalty—from the Torah, a man who has done such a despicable thing should be put to death.
One can put it this way, I married my daughter, but that is not recognised. A father who does this is surely not marrying his daughter, but raping her.
I know of a few cases where this has taken place, but the government does not apply the death sentence, so the daughter is not set free from this disgrace.

(Lev 19:29 "'Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness. )

http://www.ndtv.com/topic/father-rapes-daughter

Way to dodge the implications of your sex=marriage thought. you've claimed that rape victims are in fact married to their rapists and must therefore remain celibate until the end of their days, or until the rapist is killed or pays Daddy their brideprice or be branded an adulterer in the eyes of Yahweh. Why then are you running away from carrying your belief through to its logical conclusion?

Furthermore, you are mixing up your laws. You're claiming that the rapist and his victim are married (in the eyes of the Torah, a disputable claim, but we'll accept it for the purposes of this argument), but then jump to the "laws of the land" to assert that the marriage is not recognized. If the laws of Yahweh are paramount, then why does it matter if the laws of the land don't recognize the marriage? Surely it should only matter that in the eyes of Yahweh the two are married?

I'd like to discuss the highlighted portion with you. Why is the victim of a rape "disgraced"? We do not claim that the victim of a theft is disgraced, what is it about this offence that makes even the victim subject to sanctions? It seems grossly unjust to further penalize the victim of a crime by disgracing them as well.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Obviously Yahweh cannot provide good leadership and no one wants to follow him, if he can only gain the following of people by fear. Allow me to demonstrate why Yahweh is a poor leader using the 10 Principles of Leadership as defined by the Canadian Forces:

1. Achieve professional competence.

Yahweh: People wrote down a claim that He created the world in 6 days, said claims classify bats as being birds and further claim that insects have 4 legs.

While creating the universe is an impressive claim, classifying bats as birds and then following on with claiming that insects have 4 legs when simple observation shows that its wrong definitely makes one doubt the competence of the being making the claim.

2. Appreciate your own strengths and limitations while pursuing self-improvement.

Yahweh: Bible claims that he is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, while simultaneously requiring that we accept that he has a rival seeking to thwart his plans and goals. Paul Bethke, you've claimed that Yahweh HAS to wait for the right moment and the right person to act. The gap between the two claims is what we call a credibility gap.

Obviously the deity has limitations, but his followers claim he doesn't have any. The contradiction leads us to believe that Yahweh is putting up a front.

3. Seek and accept responsibility.

Yahweh: World is apparently not working the way he wants it to - solution is to flood it, destroy everything and start over.

An allegedly omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being can't get it right the first time and seeks to hide his error by destroying all the evidence? Not sure if Yahweh is seeking and accepting responsibility for his actions - if he's not prepared to actually fix his broken toys....

4. Lead by example.

Yahweh: The various contradictions between what is claimed to be proper behaviour in the OT and what Yahweh sanctions lead one to believe that Yahweh is more of a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of deity.

5. Make sure that your followers know your meaning and intent, then lead them to the accomplishment of the mission.

Yahweh: Doesn't issue clear instructions - the whole differing interpretations of marriage thing is an excellent example. Mr. Bethke claims that the Bible is very clear that marriage is sex and that it's a one man/one woman deal. Yet the bible very clearly indicates that Yahweh is ok with polygamy and that divorce is permissible. There are the two different listings of the 10 commandments, there are the differing genealogies of Jesus and the differing accounts of creation.

Someone's not giving clear and unambiguous direction and I don't think its me...

6. Know your soldiers and promote their welfare.

Yahweh: Job, let me take away your family and everything you worked for all your life to prove a point. You're ok with that?

7. Develop the leadership potential of your followers.

Yahweh is constantly hammering at people to obey, obey, obey. And reminding them that anything good that they have is solely due to his providence. That is not conducive to anything but creating mindless slaves.

8. Make sound and timely decisions.

Yahweh: The end times are coming soon. This is a prediction made nearly 2,000 years ago. This is not "soon" regardless of what language you use.

9. Train your soldiers as a team and employ them up to their capabilities.

Yahweh is (as presently understood) a one deity show.

10. Keep your followers informed of the mission, the changing situation and the overall picture.

Yahweh's demonstrated behaviour is erratic, he doesn't give clear direction and tries to limit people's understanding of events and natural phenomena and also tries to limit social structures to that of a less technologically and scientifically advanced period in history.

We can see that Yahweh is a failure as a leader. If He can only get my obedience through fear of consequences that, so far as can be observed, will not actually occur, then this deity is unworthy of our respect.

God appointed men to lead, so if there is any failure it should be against the men that he appointed as with the forces, you can appoint people who do not adhere to the policy of the military. Strange as it sounds, Yahweh can only carry out his mission using men, this is much the same as a commander in chief that relies on his officers.
God does demand absolute obedience to his commands as does a General. It is complete trust that one gets the result---that is why Joshua was a successful leader.

A good leader like Joshua resulted in Israel being succesfull--- Jos 24:31 Israel served the LORD throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had experienced everything the LORD had done for Israel.

But

Jdg 2:11 Then the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD and served the Baals.
Jdg 2:12 They forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They provoked the LORD to anger.

So there was no one to take over from Joshua, so Israel resorted to following other gods.

It was the same with the Church—during the time of the Apostles there was faith, but gradually at the death of the stalwarts apostasy crept in.
It seems a sad state of affairs, but the LORD is not able to proceed with his purpose without reliable men who are ardent adherents to his commands.

So maybe you can be a bit more understanding with regards to the dilemma that God faces with trying to find someone to carry out his precepts without fear.