Split Thread Signs of the End Times

[Paul Bethke]

Well, if we consider 1 Thessalonians

4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.​

Paul got that one wrong. He died, and by the time he died, the Lord had not yet returned. So Satan must have bumped him off to prevent him being alive at the Lord's descent from heaven. However, 2000 years have passed, billions of people have died, and the Lord hasn't yet appeared.

Very poor standards of prophecy altogether, I think.

That is the situation today—none of the prophecies have been fulfilled, now why not.

The answer is simple in one respect, and to know the answer empowers one to continue to believe.

God has put his dependence in man, now if man fails to carry out the ordained plan of God, then the plan is thwarted.
So down through the ages there has been a certain amount of success, but a lot of failure regarding the accomplishment of what Yahweh designed.

Paul was not in a position to complete what he had started, he did in fact leave us with the blueprint of how to complete what he envisaged, so coupled with what Jesus proclaimed we have today the perfect wisdom of how to overcome Satan and accomplish the plan of Yahweh.

The following extract explains what is the purpose of God---Rom 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but NOW revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

So we are in the age of NOW.

From the Scriptures it is revealed that Satan the evil one is in control, and not God. (1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. )

So it is better to know the truth about the present situation so as one can then plan a course of action.

 

[Paul Bethke]

"Leave your life in sin" means don't be a prostitute. Forgiveness is forgiveness of sin of any kind, as you interpret it, but it doesn't come with these caveats that you've added to it. Your changing scripture to suit your POV so that makes you a false profit according to the bible.

There is no profit in being false—no I am not a false prophet, it is you who does not like the truth, it was the same in the days when Jesus preached, people did not like the truth so they called him false.

There is forgiveness for all sin, but there are terms that apply—it is not just forgive, it is also repent, which means leave your life of sin.

So the prostitute would have to live a life outside the bounds of matrimony.
So if she were to enter into marriage she would and the man would be committing adultery—back into sin.

Marriage is a lifelong union that cannot be broken, otherwise adultery is being committed.
I am not changing Scripture, it is you who wants to change the terms of forgiveness.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Are you now claiming that satan is more powerful than your god? satan can do whatever he likes and there is nothing your god can do about it? How inneffectual is your god?

No Satan is not more powerful than God—but he seems to be more powerful than man—there are ways to overcome the power of Satan, but man does not seem to want to employ them, as a result Satan gains more influence in the affairs of this world using man.

God has appointed man to carry out his purpose, but man down through the ages has failed—but things are about to change.

 

[Paul Bethke]

And again, satan is more powerful than god. Why is god such a weakling?

Better to say man is the weakling. He lacks the will to trust God!!

 

[Paul Bethke]

You know, your god is really a complete pervert. Having this much interest in what consenting adults do in their bedrooms is really sexually deviant behavior on his part. He really needs to seek help to control his maladaptive behaviors.

Consenting to sin.
He, God has ordained marriage which as stated should be pure, and not adulterous.
(Heb 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. )

So people who are sexually immoral will face judgement.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You have missed the point. I noted that you answered a different question than what had been asked - again. I then made a rather sarcastic observation that if you answered that way in school you'd get a lot of wrong answers.

Sorry about that.

 

[Craig B]

God has put his dependence in man, now if man fails to carry out the ordained plan of God, then the plan is thwarted.

So down through the ages there has been a certain amount of success, but a lot of failure regarding the accomplishment of what Yahweh designed.

An Omnipotent being "depends" on humans??

From the Scriptures it is revealed that Satan the evil one is in control, and not God. (1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. )

The Creator is Omnipotent and Omniscient, but it is His mortal enemy who is in control, not the Creator?? This is not Christianity; it is a "dualist" heresy inspired by a doctrine ultimately derived from Manichaeism^WP.

Mani's teaching dealt with the origin of evil, by addressing a theoretical part of the problem of evil by denying the omnipotence of God and postulating two opposite powers. Manichaean theology taught a dualistic view of good and evil. A key belief in Manichaeism is that the powerful, though not omnipotent good power (God) was opposed by the semi-eternal evil power (Satan).​

 

[Cosmic Yak]

That is the situation today—none of the prophecies have been fulfilled, now why not.

The answer is simple in one respect, and to know the answer empowers one to continue to believe.

God has put his dependence in man, now if man fails to carry out the ordained plan of God, then the plan is thwarted.
So down through the ages there has been a certain amount of success, but a lot of failure regarding the accomplishment of what Yahweh designed.

Wait, so your god is all-powerful, but his plans can be stopped by Satan.
And your god is all-powerful, but his plans can also be stopped by men.
Not really all that powerful, is he?

There is an alternative answer.

None of it is true.
Come on, think about it. You've already admitted you've got no evidence at all that anything in the Bible is true. Now you're having to redefine all-powerful to mean "having control over skin colour but not much else", in order to maintain some kind of coherent explanation of the absolute failure of both Biblical prophecies and your own.
Just step back for a moment and think about it. No-one who disagrees with you has to go through all this desperate twisting and turning in order to justify their stances. Why is that?
It's clear you have a lot invested in your beliefs, but it's never too late to change. It's OK to admit mistakes- we're all human, after all. Everyone gets it wrong sometimes.

 

[abaddon]

Better to say man is the weakling. He lacks the will to trust God!!

Why would anyone trust such a lying butcher?

 

[Craig4]

Consenting to sin.
He, God has ordained marriage which as stated should be pure, and not adulterous.
(Heb 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. )

So people who are sexually immoral will face judgement.

Okay, fine for the purpose of this discussion we will pretend he exists and that he said that. Why? Why is he interested in what goes on in people's bedrooms? That's what a pervert worries about.

 

[Paul Bethke]

It is the state of the world as it has always been. To be fair, it happens in much greater numbers now than in ancient times. People don't get stoned to death as often as they once did for this sort of thing and, more importantly, we have birth control, so casual sex is a lot more common today than it once was, but it isn't a new thing.

The problem with your theology, whether applied in Biblical times or today, is that you would assert that God demands people live in misery. Let's take my situation.

Once, some decades ago, I had sex with a virgin young woman named Laura. That means we were married in the eyes of the Lord, according to your teachings. Ok. All well and good so far. Then, I abandoned her. I ran off to another state, and not too long after to another woman. This makes me an adulterer and one upon whom God might pour out his wrath. Ok. Fine. I hope you are wrong, but I won't say there's anything inherently ridiculous about that belief.

But what of Laura? Having been abandoned, the only way that she can live a life free of sin is, apparently, to live a life free of sex. She must spend her days unloved and childless, all because at age 18 some cad took her maidenhead and kissed her goodbye? Now she must live alone, or hunt me down and kill me, or spend eternity in a lake of fire. Do you really think God wants that, or that the Bible demands it?

The commandments and passages you have cited from the Bible demand that a man not do what I did. If there is divine retribution in store, I have clearly earned it. But Laura? To punish her for my actions would be cruel, and I have never heard a believer insist that God is cruel.

And in my particular case I was up front about my intentions, and she went to bed with me anyway, so maybe she was a little slut who deserves her lake of fire. On the other hand, she would have continued the relationship, even at a long distance, if I had been willing, so that ought to count for something. Regardless, for every Laura in the world, there are plenty of others to whom men pledged undying love in order to get them into bed, and either changed their mind later, or possibly never intended to keep that promise in the first place. Shall those women who suffered so much at the hands of the cads they fell in love with suffer even more at the hands of God?

No one who gives it a moments thought would agree, and nowhere can you find a passage in the Bible that demands it.

I did not want to pry, you offered to be open and I responded, with what is written, indicating that to have sex with a virgin constitutes lifelong union.

Now you want, that because there are so many people with a situation similar to yours that the terms of marriage should be changed.

The laws of the Creator never change, and Jesus restated what the Creator ordained as marriage—the two will become one.

The whole world is becoming so adulterous that Jesus said we are living in a state similar to those people who lived before the flood.

So the calling of the Church is to proclaim what the Creator ordained.
So if Laura marries she will be committing adultery, and this may be your fault for not remaining her husband.

You see Meadmaker, I did not write the laws, I only proclaimed them—it is not that I find any pleasure in proclaiming what Christ said, but it is essential that the younger generation learns the truth, the older generation like yourself will have to live with the guilt.

The account of Rebecca illustrates that marriage take place with the consent of all---( Gen 24:16 The girl was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had ever lain with her. )( Gen 24:67 Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; )

When does a virgin become someone’s wife—when a man lays with her, as with the case of Isaac and Rebecca. Doctrine in many cases is founded upon events as with this event.

 

[Paul Bethke]

So what if they're both consenting adults and managing any potential risks of STDs or unwanted pregnancy by mutual agreement? I can't see where it's any of your business if that's what people want to do.

It is my business to proclaim what the Creator ordained, so that people will not be guilty of committing adultery so by violating the marriage covenant.

What you miss is that to prevent people from going to hell the Gospel must be proclaimed in order to give people an opportunity to repent.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Wait, so your god is all-powerful, but his plans can be stopped by Satan.
And your god is all-powerful, but his plans can also be stopped by men.
Not really all that powerful, is he?

There is an alternative answer.

None of it is true.
Come on, think about it. You've already admitted you've got no evidence at all that anything in the Bible is true. Now you're having to redefine all-powerful to mean "having control over skin colour but not much else", in order to maintain some kind of coherent explanation of the absolute failure of both Biblical prophecies and your own.
Just step back for a moment and think about it. No-one who disagrees with you has to go through all this desperate twisting and turning in order to justify their stances. Why is that?
It's clear you have a lot invested in your beliefs, but it's never too late to change. It's OK to admit mistakes- we're all human, after all. Everyone gets it wrong sometimes.

Better to see it as it is, than to believe that all is under the control of God.
But the consolation is that not all is lost—there is still a way that man can emerge from his slumber an rise up to fulfill his appointment that God has prearranged—there are many situations that are recorded that man can take his cue from.

Rev_3:2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Why would anyone trust such a lying butcher?

According to your reasoning--but according to mine a righteous judge--judging man for his sins!!

 

[Paul Bethke]

An Omnipotent being "depends" on humans?? The Creator is Omnipotent and Omniscient, but it is His mortal enemy who is in control, not the Creator?? This is not Christianity; it is a "dualist" heresy inspired by a doctrine ultimately derived from Manichaeism^WP.

Mani's teaching dealt with the origin of evil, by addressing a theoretical part of the problem of evil by denying the omnipotence of God and postulating two opposite powers. Manichaean theology taught a dualistic view of good and evil. A key belief in Manichaeism is that the powerful, though not omnipotent good power (God) was opposed by the semi-eternal evil power (Satan).​

There may be a similarity but the situation is as it is today—God is not in control—but a time is coming as I have said, when men will arise to shack off the yoke of ignorance and take control as God intended.
(Dan 7:21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favour of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the Kingdom.

So for a long time this has been the case—but NOW the time has come for the tables to be turned.

 

[Border Reiver]

According to your reasoning--but according to mine a righteous judge--judging man for his sins!!

And the sins of their fathers, unto the fourth generation. Beyond that if you happen to be a descendant of Ham.

It's the whole visiting the sins of the fathers on the children and the grossly disproportionate systems of divine punishments that convinces me that Yahweh is not a God of justice, but of obedience and revenge.

 

[Craig4]

It is my business to proclaim what the Creator ordained, so that people will not be guilty of committing adultery so by violating the marriage covenant.

What you miss is that to prevent people from going to hell the Gospel must be proclaimed in order to give people an opportunity to repent.

But why is your god so interested in that? Why does he care? No one is being harmed by two consenting adults having sex.

 

[Craig4]

According to your reasoning--but according to mine a righteous judge--judging man for his sins!!

There's nothing righteous about someone injecting themselves where they have not been invited and do not belong.

 

[Paul Bethke]

There's nothing righteous about someone injecting themselves where they have not been invited and do not belong.

But Sir you are so very, very wrong, he is the Creator, and if you resist his will you condemn yourself to hell, so he is not willing that you should go to hell.

So he tells you what not to do in order to avert your destiny, which you will go to. You see there are only two places that people can end up in—the one is with God, and the other is without God, which is hell.

 

[abaddon]

But Sir you are so very, very wrong, he is the Creator, and if you resist his will you condemn yourself to hell, so he is not willing that you should go to hell.

So he tells you what not to do in order to avert your destiny, which you will go to. You see there are only two places that people can end up in—the one is with God, and the other is without God, which is hell.

Or third. Dead.