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People in China adopting custom-made white babies?

Foolmewunz said:
That is surrogacy.... Chinese biological parents. Negotiated legal surrogacy agreements.

Do you not see the difference between such an arrangement and "some lady who knows a guy who heard from a girl that you can't be bothered to check on who says" that they are matching egg and sperm donors... American egg and sperm donors, by golly, and creating western-looking babies? Children born through surrogacy have the genetic qualities of the CHINESE donors/parents. They are biologically the offspring of those parents.
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I'm not sure what the dispute is here. A donor egg is not going to give a woman her own biological offspring. Donor sperm is not going to give a man his own biological offspring. If you think it does we are working with different definitions.

Chinese "tend to" choose donors of Asian descent - that qualifier indicates to me that sometimes they don't. That's a minor hole in the CNN Money story. In context, clearly donor eggs are acceptable. So, some newborn U.S. citizens are being sent to China to be raised by women who didn't bear them and aren't related to them. Working out a surrogacy agreement doesn't change that.

CNN did not raise the scenario of a Chinese couple using both donor eggs and donor sperm, which I think is the major hole in the story. The CNN story was sort of, gee, this is interesting, let's put it in the financial section and not ask too many questions. Let a custody battle erupt in the U.S., then Fox News can cover it with whatever spin it wants.

The suggestion of Chinese wanting white babies was made by my friend. The image stuck in my mind, but it's not my key concern. If people in China want that kid and cherish him/her I don't care if it has green skin and pointy ears. I did not like the idea of children as status symbols, but they sometimes are, even if created the old-fashioned way. The technology itself is more or less neutral, except that multiple embryos create more ability to select which embryo(s) should be implanted or carried to term.

At core I don't like the idea of manufacturing more need in a world so filled with need. But people are going to do it anyway, with or without help from technology.
 
Foolmewunz said:
Do you not see the difference between such an arrangement and "some lady who knows a guy who heard from a girl that you can't be bothered to check on who says" that they are matching egg and sperm donors...
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And no I really don't see the difference. All of the component bits are happening. The "anchor baby" scheme didn't even occur to me at first but I find that unsettling as well. Children as the property of their legally defined parents who will use them to gain social advantage later in life. But even that's not unique to technology. So never mind. I'm not going to stop the process. There are plenty of people who I think shouldn't be parents, but I can't stop them.
 
Minoosh said:
Chinese "tend to" choose donors of Asian descent - that qualifier indicates to me that sometimes they don't. That's a minor hole in the CNN Money story. In context, clearly donor eggs are acceptable. So, some newborn U.S. citizens are being sent to China to be raised by women who didn't bear them and aren't related to them. Working out a surrogacy agreement doesn't change that.
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In that case the child would be the biological offspring of her husband, correct?
 
Roboramma said:
In that case the child would be the biological offspring of her husband, correct?
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In surrogacy nothing is assumed, everything is stated in the contract. And the legality isn't uniform, even across state lines, much less internationally. It's very much the Wild West. If Mrs J had given birth in Louisiana no surrogacy contract paragraph in the world would prevent her name from going on the birth certificate. Travel is restricted for that reason. But that's only one agency, dealing with two or three IVF clinics. Surrogate monthly support group stories that came home suggest even with contract agency surrogacies there's wide variance of how some pretty basic things are done, managed, restricted.

Mr and Mrs Intended Parent (Ip) will provide ova and sperm if they can. When one cannot, donor sperm and eggs are available from a wide variety of sources including anonymous banks, boutique banks, blood relatives and craigslist. Company policy by the surrogacy agency (and probably the IVF clinics with which they worked) required one IP or the other to donate genes. In extreme cases they would probably sign off on a blood relative of one IP donating.

This is internal company policy. Nothing legally prevents IVF combination of donor sperm and ova. Someone gets listed as IP for billing. That's the control point mechanism.

One IP Mrs j prscreened but declined to interview was a "single male" in Spain. Undoubtedly a gay guy wanting to nest and raise fledglings with his partner, she didn't want to deal with an overseas relationship adding another layer of distance to an already weird interpersonal interaction.

Anyway, Senor Ip would contract separately with an egg donor, either in Spain and deal with shipping or in the US. The genes are not a person. Until a contract is written specific information what the birth certificate will read, the donated genes have, as far as I know, no legal identity.

Senor Ip comes over, meets the surrogate, goes home and skypes surrogate for most of nine months, comes back for the birth and takes home a baby. The baby, on paper, is the sole custody of Sr Ip, a Spanish citizen in good legal standing at home and abroad. Baby Ip is a dual nationality citizen, which I believe usually expires if the person does not travel back and forth at some point before 18. Or maybe that's only in the one direction - my stepmom lost her dual cit with Japan, she was born on an airbase, parents deployed Americans.

At any rate, neither US nor Spain trip over the fact that Sr Ip has just taken the product of 2 different American wombs back to Spain to raise with his "roommate" all legal and tidy.

There is nothing but the clinic preventing Mr and Mrs Ip in China from contracting with an IVF clinic that will do double donation and gestational surrogate contracts.
 
The Lex Luthor's Secret Army plan I started describing upthread involves buying an IVF clinic outright and opening sperm and egg donor clinics in university towns across America.
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
In surrogacy nothing is assumed, everything is stated in the contract. And the legality isn't uniform, even across state lines, much less internationally. It's very much the Wild West. If Mrs J had given birth in Louisiana no surrogacy contract paragraph in the world would prevent her name from going on the birth certificate. Travel is restricted for that reason. But that's only one agency, dealing with two or three IVF clinics. Surrogate monthly support group stories that came home suggest even with contract agency surrogacies there's wide variance of how some pretty basic things are done, managed, restricted.

Mr and Mrs Intended Parent (Ip) will provide ova and sperm if they can. When one cannot, donor sperm and eggs are available from a wide variety of sources including anonymous banks, boutique banks, blood relatives and craigslist. Company policy by the surrogacy agency (and probably the IVF clinics with which they worked) required one IP or the other to donate genes. In extreme cases they would probably sign off on a blood relative of one IP donating.

This is internal company policy. Nothing legally prevents IVF combination of donor sperm and ova. Someone gets listed as IP for billing. That's the control point mechanism.

One IP Mrs j prscreened but declined to interview was a "single male" in Spain. Undoubtedly a gay guy wanting to nest and raise fledglings with his partner, she didn't want to deal with an overseas relationship adding another layer of distance to an already weird interpersonal interaction.

Anyway, Senor Ip would contract separately with an egg donor, either in Spain and deal with shipping or in the US. The genes are not a person. Until a contract is written specific information what the birth certificate will read, the donated genes have, as far as I know, no legal identity.

Senor Ip comes over, meets the surrogate, goes home and skypes surrogate for most of nine months, comes back for the birth and takes home a baby. The baby, on paper, is the sole custody of Sr Ip, a Spanish citizen in good legal standing at home and abroad. Baby Ip is a dual nationality citizen, which I believe usually expires if the person does not travel back and forth at some point before 18. Or maybe that's only in the one direction - my stepmom lost her dual cit with Japan, she was born on an airbase, parents deployed Americans.

At any rate, neither US nor Spain trip over the fact that Sr Ip has just taken the product of 2 different American wombs back to Spain to raise with his "roommate" all legal and tidy.

There is nothing but the clinic preventing Mr and Mrs Ip in China from contracting with an IVF clinic that will do double donation and gestational surrogate contracts.
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Great post. Nice to see some direct information.
 
Roboramma said:
In that case the child would be the biological offspring of her husband, correct?
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In theory, unless donor sperm was also used. Googling I found a fertility clinic in Spain that will use donor everything including uteri, but I don't know if people are interested in Spanish anchor babies.

I think I'm making a fundamental mistake in my assumptions, which is that being related genetically gives parents more of an investment in their children. My parents adopted 2 sons (after which Mom immediately got pregnant) and these are my brothers. I was closer to my "biological" brother for most of my life but not all of it. But then, we were also closer in age. He died young (39). I do think some personality traits we shared were genetic, but my other brothers are still my brothers.

Since commitment to the surrogacy process is more of an investment than the 5-10 minutes it takes (for men) to create "biological" children maybe the eventual parents are that much more invested in raising the children.

There is a Ha Jin short story in which, after a very bad earthquake, everyone scatters in the chaos and one man recreates the complex ties of kinship with a completely different family. Then one of his actual relatives turns out to be alive, and he has to adjust back to that, again with wrenching results.
 
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I just wanted to add that my previous and perhaps obsolete notion of the status of mixed-race kids in Asia comes more from reading about Japan, and perhaps Korea and Vietnam, than it does from China. That gigantic country, with long land borders, does seem more fluid about accepting people as "Chinese," judging by Mongol and Manchu assimilation into a country they purportedly conquered.
 
According to several of the articles already posted, the laws are quite a bit more lax than they are in AU, Taiwan, and a few other areas more easily accessible. It's been called out as one of the main reason that Chinese parents are seeking US surrogates.

But you know, those are just articles, I'm sure you'll reject them as not conforming to your already solidified belief :rolleyes:
 
cullennz said:
But there is no proof they are buying American embryos when they could just rock over here
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I actually do wonder why New Zealand isn't more of a target for desperate immigrants, which does not include the well-heeled and well-connected Chinese who are, yes, apparently eager to create heirs who are U.S. citizens.

Maybe just because it's a relatively small and isolated place where disappearing into the woodwork is less feasible. Also boat people aren't pedestrians who can literally walk to their destination.
 
Minoosh said:
I actually do wonder why New Zealand isn't more of a target for desperate immigrants, which does not include the well-heeled and well-connected Chinese who are, yes, apparently eager to create heirs who are U.S. citizens.

Maybe just because it's a relatively small and isolated place where disappearing into the woodwork is less feasible. Also boat people aren't pedestrians who can literally walk to their destination.
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We have heaps of chinese immigrants

When it comes to refugees thay just can't really get here.

Their crappy boats would get torn apart in the Tasman sea or trying to come round the pacific

Can get a bit rough
 
Emily's Cat said:
Hmm. They're about 2.4% of your population, at about 98,000.
They're only 1.2% of the US population... but that's 3,800,000. They also tend to cluster. So I'm not sure that your "heaps" really stack all that high.
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Not sure where that is from

Asian is 11.8%

Our biggest city is 25%
 
Minoosh said:
Geez, and I sometimes think I'm negative. America has been around for just about as long as New Zealand. Are you hurt Chinese aren't going with Kiwi surrogates?
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Yes, he is butt hurt over that.
Chinese "tend" to choose donors of Asian heritage. But apparently some go for other "races." Get over it.
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Indeed, which is why this story is news: it's departure from the norm.

cullennz said:
You do realise we and Aus have free trade agreements with China and they are our biggest export, tourist market.

Why fart around in the US
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Because your sperm is no good. Deal with it.

cullennz said:
Actually that was harsh.

There is some decent food in the US
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Yes, it is called Brisket.

Let me lay a little truth on you, amigo. In 1974 I lived in Taiwan. The 14 and 15 year old girls who were sorta pretty and blond in our high school made a crap ton of money doing shampoo commercials for Chinese TV stations selling Chinese shampoo. Why? The Chinese (and Taiwanese) dug that blond crap.
Why? I don't care. They paid. Why? Because they dug it. Remember, amigo, in 1974 the Kuomintang still thought they and Chiang Kai Chek would some how return to the mainland and return to power. I don't care if you don't think it made sense then, in 1974, or if you don't think this other stuff makes sense now in 2016.
You
Don't
Get
It

FMW gets it.
 
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I finally talked to my friend and said, "So, your girlfriend manufactures anchor babies?" And got that yes, this is definitely the case. I was spectacularly wrong about something: Though they use donor sperm AND egg, IVF and a surrogate, they want Chinese-American genes. They don't want white genes. Apparently they favor graduates of Harvard as donors.

This says something nice about the regard for U.S. universities, somewhere where we still have prestige.

Down the road maybe they want their kids to go to Harvard.
 
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