People in China adopting custom-made white babies?

[cullennz]

I have not confirmed that any IVF clinic in any state would be comfortable using donor sperm AND egg to create embryos. The American-ness [of the donors] wasn't the primary issue with me - it was my uninformed (though possibly not wrong) speculation that a child unrelated genetically to either of its putative parents could be gestated by a 3rd party and born in the U.S., thenceforth winging its way to Beijing as a U.S. citizen to be adopted by people it wasn't related to.

Essentially yes, it boils down to curiosity about the process, because only by knowing the steps in the process can I identify potential for abuse.

Yes, but it jumped there from a certain place, which was a thread about how the West was going to get stupider and stupider because the Chinese were already splicing genes into human embryos. The OP of that thread lauded these efforts. There is potentially not a heck of a lot of transparency in China's research efforts, and also less inhibition as far as manipulating human embryos.

No, it's an underlying fear of China. And actually I wouldn't call it fear - more like wariness. Yes, my friend's speculation about "blond hair and blue eyes" did send me off on a tangent. I thought most Han Chinese would want a Han Chinese child, and that a white or mixed-"race" kid would have a tough time of it, so I wondered why anyone would want to do it. That led to status-symbol imagery and worse. From what I've read I don't get a flattering view of China's wealthy princeling class.

The Economist magazine occasionally drops a hint about "ugly" Chinese nationalism, which I think might boil down to Han Chinese believing Han Chinese are a superior race. Would China have any compunction about running experiments to prove it? Or, would China have any interest in looking at the genomes of other "races" to identify which traits might inspire cross-breeding experiments?

I'm not talking about infants at this point, more like: Some Asians have a reaction to ethanol that isn't seen in "Caucasians." Can this be bred out of an embryo line? Can other traits be bred into an embryo line? And if scientists got this far, how much farther might they want to go? In Googling around I found a reference to China cloning human embryos. A possible next step, IMO, would be implanting these embryos into various wombs to see how close they could get to creating duplicate human beings, and what environmental factors might be varied in utero.

If any country has the will or wherewithal to do it, it's probably China. Its 20th-century history shows a willingness to indulge in social experiments and national pride could easily fuel enthusiasm for original genetic research that would IMO be more difficult to carry out in the "West." If China has an edge here, why would it stop? It has every reason to carry on.

Except the Chinese don't want to look white.

Mixed marriages aside.

Reality check.

The Chinese are happy being Chinese.

 

[cullennz]

It is interesting you seem to refer to white Americans as a race.

They are surely "British American " as apposed to "native American"

 

[Foolmewunz]

Except the Chinese don't want to look white.

Mixed marriages aside.

Reality check.

The Chinese are happy being Chinese.

Except the Chinese do want to look white.... the color. That's proven by the billion dollar "Whitening" cosmetics industry.

And the Chinese also, like the Koreans, do go in for surgery to have their lovely almond shaped eyes widened so they look more western.

These may be something you're unfamiliar with. "Facts." You could try using them sometime. They are very easy to learn.

 

[cullennz]

Except the Chinese do want to look white.... the color. That's proven by the billion dollar "Whitening" cosmetics industry.

And the Chinese also, like the Koreans, do go in for surgery to have their lovely almond shaped eyes widened so they look more western.

These may be something you're unfamiliar with. "Facts." You could try using them sometime. They are very easy to learn.

Maybe you could try posting some "evidence"

 

[Minoosh]

It is interesting you seem to refer to white Americans as a race.

They are surely "British American " as apposed to "native American"

Show me where I've done that? Except in quoting my friend's "blond-haired, blue-eyed" comment? I try not to use "race" too much.

There are other countries where Chinese are employing surrogates but per CNN the U.S. is the favorite.

Also - You think all white Americans are of British stock?

 

[Minoosh]

Maybe you could try posting some "evidence"

Not directed at me but you won't accept as valid a well-researched article I posted. I know how to look for bias in text and I didn't see it there. Of course there is some "bias" in that he thought it was noteworthy enough to write about at some length.

This aspect of the conversation really seems to bother you and I'm not sure why. You reject an article with interviews, citations from literature, interviews and a review of cosmetics past and present, yet you present no evidence to the contrary.

 

[cullennz]

Show me where I've done that? Except in quoting my friend's "blond-haired, blue-eyed" comment? I try not to use "race" too much.

There are other countries where Chinese are employing surrogates but per CNN the U.S. is the favorite.

Also - You think all white Americans are of British stock?

My mistake. European Americans

Most of which British Americans

I just find it funny your claim with no evidence is based on people wanting to look American when America has been around as long as a spot on my bum and if anything it would be Europe

 

[cullennz]

Not directed at me but you won't accept as valid a well-researched article I posted it. I know how to detect bias in text and I didn't see it there. Of course there is some "bias" in that he thought it was noteworthy enough to write about it some length.

This aspect of the conversation really seems to bother you and I'm not sure why. You reject an article with citations from literature, interviews and a review of cosmetics past and present, yet you present no evidence to the contrary.

Because I know heaps of Chinese people. Have spent loads of time in China and have seen zero peer reviewed research, anecdotal evidence to show your claim

"Your claim"

I.e. onus on you to prove

 

[Foolmewunz]

Maybe you could try posting some "evidence"

You dismissed the evidence as "a blog".

Here's some evidence: see my previous post... No. 65

I lived in Taiwan and Hong Kong for a combined fourteen years. Add four in Thailand. I know quite a few more Chinese than you do and have been in their houses and seen their bathrooms full of the products. My damned wife buys ME some of them. Eastern and southeast Asians want whiter skin.

The shelves in the pharmacies, apothecaries and supermarkets here are full of whitening products. Check Alibaba/Ali Express to see the number of products available.

Here, read forty or fifty pages at this link.... https://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/skin-whitening-products.html

And if you haven't read in the news over the past ten years about the plastic surgery business being done on narrowing noses and embiggening eyes, then you haven't been reading the news.

[Wow. My spellcheck accepts "embiggening".]

The nosejobs and eyelid surgery have to do with wanting to simply LOOK more western. I have no doubt that a portion of those are also into whitening as fashion. The majority, though, is based on cultural tradition. Whiter skin means you are upper class or royalty. Darker skin means you are a peasant or laborer. It's as simple as that. A century and less ago this entire region/continent was more than sixty per cent agrarian.

When I first got to Taipei, I commented to a girl I was seeing that the Taiwanese were worse than the British, always carrying an umbrella just in case it rained. She laughed and pointed out the number of open umbrellas across the street.... on a sunny day. "We use to keep from getting suntan." It ain't for the heat. You can be in Beijing or Seoul or Hokkaido in January and they'll have their umbrellas out when it's 3^oC.

 

[cullennz]

It was a blog.

Skin whitening ads do not equal evidence.

The site is probably blocked their firewall

This is pretty simple

Post links to mass cosmetic surgery and buying products

 

[Foolmewunz]

It was a blog.

Skin whitening ads do not equal evidence.

The site is probably blocked their firewall

This is pretty simple

Post links to mass cosmetic surgery and buying products

Those aren't skin-whitening ads, ya ignoramus. Alibaba is a site to find manufacturers of products. There are thousands of products available.

If I go take a photo of the Boots aisle here with the whiteners, you'd just ask for proof that people actually buy them? "A bunch of pictures of products doesn't mean anyone use them."

Read the article you dismissed. The information is accurate. I live here. You do not. Look at the number of manufacturers of whitening products I linked you to Google "eyelid surgery China"... or "Korea" or "Japan". Read about the boom in plastic surgery in China over the past decade. It's all available.

If a British poster says "the English drink water", I doubt there's a scholarly article available. The Brit poster would think I was insane if I demanded proof of something that they see every day. Here's something else I could probably only prove by linking to ads or from personal experience: The Chinese Use Chopsticks. Yeah, they do.

 

[cullennz]

Korea and Japan aren't China

 

[Foolmewunz]

Korea and Japan aren't China

Well, you'll have to now prove that all those Chinese people traveling to Korea for eyelid surgery are really from Fort Myers, Florida.

Here's but one sample of dozens and dozens of articles I found by Googling "Chinese flock to Korea for Plastic Surgery"....


http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ful-top-5-cosmetic-surgery-procedures-chinese

However Chinese and Korean patients want a different style of features. “Chinese patients want more westernised features, like bigger eyes, taller noses. They want to look like Barbie dolls. Korean patients want more natural, Asian features these days,” says Cho.

How about skin whitening?

All across Asia fair skin is highly prized. In dark-skinned South Asia, a fair complexion is considered the epitome of beauty while in already pale-skinned North and East Asia, pearly translucent white skin is a sign of affluence and glamour. “Skin whitening has a long history in Asia, stemming back to ancient China," said Li Yanbing, vice-secretary general of the Chamber of Beauty Culture and Cosmetics of the All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce, in an interview with China Daily. "And the saying, 'One white covers up one hundred ugliness,' was passed through the generations.” Read more from Asian Scientist Magazine at: http://www.asianscientist.com/2012/09/features/skin-whitening-products-asia-2012/

 

[cullennz]

404 error

 

[cullennz]

As an aside.

What has it to do with breeding embryos?

 

[Foolmewunz]

As an aside.

What has it to do with breeding embryos?

It's a legitimate digression. Just don't post crap that isn't true. If whether or not the Chinese love or hate being white is not germane to the topic, why'd you bring it up? I have this thing about correcting people who post unfounded claims based on street wisdom and impressions.

Both links work for me. One's to the South China Morning Post, the other to Asia Scientist. But you can Google the topics and find dozens of articles proving what I'm stating.

 

[cullennz]

It's a legitimate digression. Just don't post crap that isn't true. If whether or not the Chinese love or hate being white is not germane to the topic, why'd you bring it up. I have this thing about correcting people who post unfounded claims based on street wisdom and impressions.

Both links work for me. One's to the South China Morning Post, the other to Asia Scientist. But you can Google the topics and find dozens of articles proving what I'm stating.

I didn't bring it up.

And it isnt a legitimate digression.

The subject of the thread is embryos

It is pretty simple. Just post evidence of Chinese people buying white babies.

So far it is you zero

 

[Foolmewunz]

I think you mis-spelled, "I was wrong. Sorry."

You brought it up when you said we weren't to take "this bloke's blog" seriously. It's an accurate article. I know so, from experience. You guessed otherwise from.....? Your vast knowledge of Eastern Asia?

I have no evidence of Chinese people buying white babies. I've merely said that your rational for disbelieving them is based on misperceptions.

I have stated that it would actually be impossible for the Chinese to be adopting fully-formed, e.g. "born" American babies. You cannot adopt without being resident in the states in various fashions, and the OP variation could only be true, by law, if they were exporting embryos. You can ship embryos, legally, from the US. You cannot pack of an American-born [thus, citizen] to someone you've pre-arranged to turn it over to. Adopting an American baby would be considerably more difficult.

Just speculation, but I think that someone would've heard of any Chinese ventures moving babies. Remember, by American law any child born in the US, other than to diplomatic personnel, is automatically a U.S. Citizen.

 

[cullennz]

No

That was just a stupid section of ANOTHER'S link.

Just post evidence of embryo trading

 

[Dipayan]

Except the Chinese do want to look white.... the color. That's proven by the billion dollar "Whitening" cosmetics industry.

And the Chinese also, like the Koreans, do go in for surgery to have their lovely almond shaped eyes widened so they look more western.

These may be something you're unfamiliar with. "Facts." You could try using them sometime. They are very easy to learn.

This is very true, and applicable across the whole of the Asian continent.