Ancient Egyptian drill holes question

[Noriabooks]

Ok, so I'm having this debate with a pyramidiot and the drill holes keep surfacing every now and then.

It's kinda hard to argue to this specific argument because i can't find almost any scientific conclusions about stone drilling/cutting in Egypt except some pretty vague texts about bronze cylinders/saws and sand. Ok, there are a couple of vieos of reenactment of sawing a lime stone with bronze saw and sand but what about driling holes and especially about granite working?

I don't doubt that they probably used the same approach everywhere but shouldn't there be experimental archaeologyst reenacting these theories? And if there aren't, then why? What seems to be the problem?

Another thing I dont quite get is the quality of the holes, especially in granite, because this is the material repeatedly pointied out. So, we are shown those nice, even shiny holes, some of them with radial grooves that are supposed to prove that they were cut with a step of approximately 2 mm or something like that which should have been impossible by conventional methods.

Well, of course i doubt that the grooves are spiral which the sould be if they were to indicate the drilling speed and step. Has anybody studied them and pointed out if they are just radial or spiral? If radial, i could explain them very simply: after every certain time or drilling depth the workers replaced the old abrasive (sand) with the fresh one. Now the fresh one, being a better cutter either made a wider or narrower cut (not sure yet, which one; I suspect that in time the sand was powderized and got additional volume from both granite and saw itself and it started to cut these wider sections in drill holes because of the expanding volume but who knows (well, really - I want to know who knows, if anybody; that's why I'm here!)) and when it was worn out, it made the opposite cut. But if they really ARE spiral, then we're ********** i guess. I don't see an appropriate explanation for this.
___________

Of course, even if the secret of these holes remains a secret forever, it doesn't prove that the aliens or ancient hi-tec civilization did it. It's obvious to rational people that if they had a tecnology to powercut granit as we are able do it only nowadays, they must have had other abilities too! It's not like you have a knowledge of power-cutting and you build the whole pyramid with hi-tec tools but you transport the stones on papyrus rafts and break them from quarry with bronze tools and live in mud huts and...well...in general wont leave behind any hard evidence of this at all. You know what I mean... Pyramidiocy is nothing else than a version of a God of Gaps.

But i'll wait for your answers to my questions. Thank you!

 

[abaddon]

Pyramidiots constantly make use of the fact that at this remove in time, it is impossible to be definitive about exactly how the Egyptians actually did it. At best, the evidence may lead to a suggested likely method that was used, but it remains impossible to be 100% certain. This, of course, allows the pyramidots to claim that "science deosn't know" and to be correct in that claim. The onion in their ointment is that science is perfectly comfortable in that position. Science does not claim to have information that it can't possibly know. Pyramidiots, in contrast, actually do flat out claim to know things they cannot possibly know. Much like any other religion.

As an example, some of the Egyptian holes exhibit evidence of a drilling method known as "trepanning" (not to be confused with the similar ancient medical procedure) such as the charactistic spiral in the hole walls and tapering shape. (wiki for a brief description).
The evidence seems to indicate that was used for some holes but one cannot be certain that the Egyptians did not invent a novel method of their own.

 

[Noriabooks]

This makes me wonder, you know! With all the knowledge we've got, we can't come up with a satisfying solution that would also fit into the historical background? ****! They didn't have much choices, you know. Actually they had almost no choices at all! I mean, there are only a few coices to be chosen between in a bronze era to drill holes into stone.

Trepanning does not seem to be the case cause as much as i understand it, it could not have been done (back then) in subjectively narrow and deep holes.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove a breach of rule 10. If you must swear in the public sections (of which HLA is one) then please type the word out in full and correctly spelled, with no substitute characters, so that the autocensor can take care of it.

 

[MikeG]

Welcome Noriahbooks. I wonder if you might actually be playing devil's advocate here, and if your interest isn't so much in debunking but reinforcing?

 

[abaddon]

This makes me wonder, you know! With all the knowledge we've got, we can't come up with a satisfying solution that would also fit into the historical background? ****! They didn't have much choices, you know. Actually they had almost no choices at all! I mean, there are only a few coices to be chosen between in a bronze era to drill holes into stone.

Trepanning does not seem to be the case cause as much as i understand it, it could not have been done (back then) in subjectively narrow and deep holes.

The archaeological evidence suggests you are wrong. The method suggested is perfectly fine for wider bore holes. Other methods are suggested for other applications. There is nothing about any of them which exceeds the available Egyptian techniques of the time.

If you find these explanations somehow personally unsatisfactory then that is your subjective issue.

I could sped the time looking up the details of a shopping list of different methods, but I suspect that you would find none of them would pass your satisfaction bar.



Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk

 

[Noriabooks]

Welcome Noriahbooks. I wonder if you might actually be playing devil's advocate here, and if your interest isn't so much in debunking but reinforcing?

Oh, if ONLY you knew how bloody I am against all sorts of woo. I just like certainty in my arguments. I don't like going around, smashing with unsupported assertions. I like doing my homework before I enter with any argument. And obviously I want everything to be fair also for the opponent. Which menas that I just try to studuy his side if I see anything at all worthy of studying. The same person also shoots out "arguments" about "energetic fields around pyramids and that probably they were built to protect us from gamma ray burts from The great annihilator (the huge black hole, you know) and there is a bubble of energy around the pyramids that was discovered by some great researcher (i.e. a lunatic)". Well...don't even bother reading those articles he points out cause its an obvious woo.

But as we just learned, the drilling thing IS sort of mysterious. I don't say, it's anything beyond the knowledge people at that era should have had but I'm devastated to admit that i cant give him a satisfying explanation about the technique used and thus debunking those claims of "advanced technology". And that makes me sad. And you don't even try to think that i consider this a point for "them" - no i dont

 

[theprestige]

Noriabooks, is the answer, "we know of several techniques that are adequate to the task and were available to the ancient Egyptians, but it's impossible to determine this long afterwards which technique they actually used", satisfying to *you*?

 

[Noriabooks]

The archaeological evidence suggests you are wrong. The method suggested is perfectly fine for wider bore holes.

I think I said that the egyptian holes are narrow and as far as i understand, trepanning is good for wider holes. But most egyptian holes are not very wide. Well, i know next to nothing about this method and watching pics over the internet gives me no idea what is the difference between core drilling and trepanning after all.

If you find these explanations somehow personally unsatisfactory then that is your subjective issue.

Unfortunately I haven't really seen any explanation yet. Maybe we have a different standards about explaining things but when I explain something to someone I try to do is so that he would really understand. That is the reason why I'm asking for information here in the first place. Hopefully I didn't come to a wrong place...

I could sped the time looking up the details of a shopping list of different methods, but I suspect that you would find none of them would pass your satisfaction bar.

I don't think that just the shopping list would do. What I was looking for, if you noticed, is a solid research about these techniques preferrably with an experiment. They made clear experiments about sawing limestone with bronze saws and sand. They had an idea, they tested it and voila - the result. You say, they also have an idea for granite drilling? Nice! I'm honestly glad. But why don they reenact it in practice? Or do they? I guess they have tried it but....no public materials....would it be honest to suggest that it was a fail?

And I repeat: I'm not some "undercover" woo guy but a solid rationalis! I'm just honestly interested if someone has already cracked this secret and if not, then why the **** not? If you say, that we have good ideas, it wouldnt be too hard to test them all and get at least close results. If not...why are we even paying them salaries! :-D

__________________

Noriabooks, is the answer, "we know of several techniques that are adequate to the task and were available to the ancient Egyptians, but it's impossible to determine this long afterwards which technique they actually used", satisfying to *you*?

I know, we have ideas and theories but why doesn't anybody replicate the same conditions and results? If the egyptians manages to produce lots of holes, then i don't see any reason why we cant produce them also. But we cant and i wonder why? Because I have to explain this to a guy who is talking about pyramids being power plants

 

[Nakani]

Noriabooks,

Interesting topic, I am just spit ballin' here but could they have drilled the hole and then used another type of drill bit to clean up the hole. If the hole was all ready drilled, roughed out so to speak, maybe the spiral tool marks on the side are from a honing bit used to finish the job.

 

[Hans]

To clarify in archaeology there are few absolutes. We have examples of incomplete cores that point to certain techniques being used and images of them using some of the techniques. No absolute statement can be made as to which one they used (it is also possible that different artist/periods of time used slightly different techniques. What IS missing is any evidence that they used something other than the materials available and the techniques then known.

When dealing with woo they often concentrate on trying to discredit the orthodox view for the simple reason that their own 'view' has little to no evidence.

 

[theprestige]

I know, we have ideas and theories but why doesn't anybody replicate the same conditions and results? If the egyptians manages to produce lots of holes, then i don't see any reason why we cant produce them also. But we cant and i wonder why? Because I have to explain this to a guy who is talking about pyramids being power plants : D

Why don't you just tell the guy he has ideas and theories but why doesn't he replicate the same conditions and results? But in fact I could care less about the guy and his power plants. He's not here. You and your questions about drill holes are. So let's stick to those for now. Maybe later your guy can join this forum and make his own threads to discuss his own ideas.

As to your drill holes, what makes you think we can't? It's true that we don't, because we have better ways to drill holes, and better things to do with our resources than drill holes using 4,000 year-old methods.

Leaving aside your "guy", why is it important to you to determine which of several possible methods the ancient Egyptians may have used to drill holes?

 

[abaddon]

I think I said that the egyptian holes are narrow and as far as i understand, trepanning is good for wider holes. But most egyptian holes are not very wide. Well, i know next to nothing about this method and watching pics over the internet gives me no idea what is the difference between core drilling and trepanning after all.



Unfortunately I haven't really seen any explanation yet. Maybe we have a different standards about explaining things but when I explain something to someone I try to do is so that he would really understand. That is the reason why I'm asking for information here in the first place. Hopefully I didn't come to a wrong place...



I don't think that just the shopping list would do. What I was looking for, if you noticed, is a solid research about these techniques preferrably with an experiment. They made clear experiments about sawing limestone with bronze saws and sand. They had an idea, they tested it and voila - the result. You say, they also have an idea for granite drilling? Nice! I'm honestly glad. But why don they reenact it in practice? Or do they? I guess they have tried it but....no public materials....would it be honest to suggest that it was a fail?

And I repeat: I'm not some "undercover" woo guy but a solid rationalis! I'm just honestly interested if someone has already cracked this secret and if not, then why the **** not? If you say, that we have good ideas, it wouldnt be too hard to test them all and get at least close results. If not...why are we even paying them salaries! :-D

__________________



I know, we have ideas and theories but why doesn't anybody replicate the same conditions and results? If the egyptians manages to produce lots of holes, then i don't see any reason why we cant produce them also. But we cant and i wonder why? Because I have to explain this to a guy who is talking about pyramids being power plants

There is no "secret" to crack. We could come up with 50 potential methods, all of which are viable. There is simply no way to be certain which, if any, the Egyptians actually used, or if they used an entirely different method that we never thought of.

The point is that such methods are entirely viable using technology available at the time and utterly mundane. Occam's Razor applies here. Invent unnecessary additional entities in the argument is not on. If they could do it by mundane means, there is no need for "secret" methods or aliens.

Now, in my original response, a little investigooling turned up many different methods for many different types of hole, including the type you now restrict yourself to, some of which I was aware of and some not. It only took seconds. There is no reason why you could not do this for yourself. This indicates to me that you are trying to get people to be your internet monkeys and will reject any response on the basis that it is not "personally satisfying" to you. There is, of course, a term for such efforts. I am sure you can google that too.

 

[Hans]

Why don't you just tell the guy he has ideas and theories but why doesn't he replicate the same conditions and results? But in fact I could care less about the guy and his power plants. He's not here. You and your questions about drill holes are. So let's stick to those for now. Maybe later your guy can join this forum and make his own threads to discuss his own ideas.

As to your drill holes, what makes you think we can't? It's true that we don't, because we have better ways to drill holes, and better things to do with our resources than drill holes using 4,000 year-old methods.

Leaving aside your "guy", why is it important to you to determine which of several possible methods the ancient Egyptians may have used to drill holes?

I suggest to those who think we can't because the art has been lost to offer up a prize of say 250,000 USD for a person who can directly replicate one of the AE methods of drilling. In time it would be accomplished

It takes time and effort to regain a lost art. It took two generations for people to replicate the efforts of stone tool makers.

Example: If you had a time machine and went back to ancient Egypt and handed them a football could they do a forward pass in the style of the best American quarterbacks? Nope not at all - does that mean that a quarterback of the 21st century couldn't do what we have records of? No.

The ancient Egyptians would have to recreate most of the aspects of the American foot ball culture to finally produce someone who could do what a modern quarterback can quite easy do now days. The same applies to getting a modern artist to reestablish the ancient art of stone core drilling.

Its gonna take a lot of time and at present there is little motivation to spent that amount of time to do so.

 

[bruto]

In usual machining terminology, tubular drilling, core drilling, and trepanning are all basically the same thing. Trepanning is simply drilling a circular pattern and leaving a core, rather than drilling the entire hole. You can make a tubular drill pretty small. I've seen some stuff that suggests it's not that hard to do a hole down to 1/4 inch or so with a tubular drill and emery or other abrasive, and that emery was known of and available. The larger the hole, the more a tubular drill is needed, but if loose abrasive is used, it makes sense as small as you can make it.

If you're determined to be a pyramidiot, it's hard to prove that magic or extraterrestrial technology, or some lost art, did not come into play; but if you can show that the job could be done with the technology we know was available, you have shown that the other things are not necessary.

We can never be sure of some things, but we can get a pretty good guess from fragments that are left, and better yet when the Egyptians drew pictures of what they were doing.

I found an interesting site (archived from an old geocities site) that looks as if it addresses at least some issues.

http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_copper_coring_drills.html

 

[SusanB-M1]

Noriabooks

About 20 years or more ago, I attended a two-day conference in London, where various speakers talked of how it must of course have been advanced, ultra-sound equipment that was used to make the smooth insides of stone amphorae. Fortunately, I was already very much a sceptic! Then in the mid-2000s I acquired a computer and sort of 'discovered' the Graham Hancock forum and this one. My first posts to both were on this subject. on the Mysteries section of this page of the GH forum there have regularly been long discussions on Egyptian drilled holes. The poster whose feet have remained firmly on the
ground, is ArchaeSolenhofen. (I'm susandoris there.)


It seems to me that, if someone wants to believe that Egyptian stone-drilling skills are (a) impossible to replicate, or (b) must have used some advanced technique, then logical explanations, or 'we don't actually know every detail' simply will not be accepted!

 

[Loss Leader]

I always find it amazing that the Great Pyramid remained the tallest man-made structure for 3,800 years. Nothing quite motivates the mind like the belief that God wants you to build something cool for him.

 

[Nakani]

Noriabooks,

Interesting topic, I am just spit ballin' here but could they have drilled the hole and then used another type of drill bit to clean up the hole. If the hole was all ready drilled, roughed out so to speak, maybe the spiral tool marks on the side are from a honing bit used to finish the job.

I see the tool marks are on the cores as well, so I guess that's not possible.

 

[HansMustermann]

Why don't you just tell the guy he has ideas and theories but why doesn't he replicate the same conditions and results? But in fact I could care less about the guy and his power plants. He's not here. You and your questions about drill holes are. So let's stick to those for now. Maybe later your guy can join this forum and make his own threads to discuss his own ideas.

As to your drill holes, what makes you think we can't? It's true that we don't, because we have better ways to drill holes, and better things to do with our resources than drill holes using 4,000 year-old methods.

Leaving aside your "guy", why is it important to you to determine which of several possible methods the ancient Egyptians may have used to drill holes?

Actually, what makes anyone think that we don't STILL do the same things?

Using sand as an abrasive on much harder materials is still very much in use. We still have sandpaper or files made of basically small hard particles on a metal surface. Sure, they're actually bonded, as opposed to the Egyptians just pouring loose sand and using a copper band or tube to push it around, but it's just a minor evolution of the same thing.

Hell, even using loose sand is still in use, e.g., in sandblasting. Again, it's not the same technique, but an evolution of it, but it's still using sand in the same role.

But on the topic of drilling or widening or smoothing holes in harder materials using sand, yes, it is used today. It's called a spindle sander. You can even do it at home. And there are tutorials all over the web. Not that there's that much of a complicated tutorial, since it boils down to putting a wooden dowel in your drill and using either sandpaper or just sand for it to rub against the hole you're trying to sand.

So, you know, it's not even some lost art. It's STILL in use, 5000 years later. Some DIY guy is probably sanding a hole that way somewhere while you read this.

There may be things from the past -- e.g., Damascus steel -- that are a lost art (or lost and found) but sanding is not it. It's never been lost.

 

[SusanB-M1]

HansMustermann

And the difficulty is, of course, that those who want there to be some 'advanced', 'mysterious', 'lost' technology involved will not see even that they might be wrong.

 

[simonxlong]

HansMustermann

And the difficulty is, of course, that those who want there to be some 'advanced', 'mysterious', 'lost' technology involved will not see even that they might be wrong.

You just hit the nail on the head. These people WANT these things to be true, so they will go to extreme lengths to deny anything not fitting their predetermined world view. You can show them how something could have been accomplished with mundane technology available at the time, but they'll never accept it. They'll always find a "flaw" with whatever you present, or invent a flaw if one doesn't exist, in order to hold onto their belief. I really think that there is a large portion of society who has begun to abandon traditional religions only to replace them with a new "religion" of aliens.