Merged Now What?

[catsmate]

Oh noes ! Brexit is going to affect John Lewis !!!!!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36740602

Along with a widening trade deficit, more bad news on UK property funds, significant problems with post-Brexit research funding, a steep fall in the number of job vacancies advertised online, price increases for imported (i.e. pretty much all) electronic goods and more.

But, hey, freedom.

 

[catsmate]

As mentioned above, Melton Mowbray pork pies and Stilton are certainly worthy of their inclusion in the list of protected foods.

I shall begin planning to destroy them in Europe with imitations.

 

[The Don]

Along with a widening trade deficit, more bad news on UK property funds, significant problems with post-Brexit research funding, a steep fall in the number of job vacancies advertised online, price increases for imported (i.e. pretty much all) electronic goods and more.

But, hey, freedom.

Leafing further into the latest Private Eye I saw a cartoon.

A boss is handing a sad looking man a P45 and the caption is

"Congratulations ! You've taken back control of your future, Dennis"

 

[Lothian]

No one said they had to change their minds, but they have to accept the result of the democratic process, unless you are somehow opposed to that process.

Of course I am opposed to it. I accept it was how the vote went but that does not mean I don't want to stop it. Am I supposed to stop wanting PR and campaigning for it because it was rejected in a referendum?

Once again: if self-determination is controversial, then it stands to reason that one side of the argument is opposed to the idea of self-determination.

The points were whether the EU is less democratic than the UK and the extend as well as the right to decide your own laws. We will come back to that.

No, that's exactly how the conversation has gone so far.

The conversation has not consisted of me stating your views are as a result of ignorance and xenophobia

In the last 5 pages I have directly replied to you as follows.

"EU laws originate from the commission. The commission has 28 commissioners put forward by the government of each country. They each have a policy area and put forward laws with are voted on by representatives of the public and governments.
I fail to see how that is less democratic than the Uk situation where ministers selected by the prime minister put forward laws which are voted on by representatives of the public and the lords and ladies of the land.

If the Uk model was in Europe the MEP with the most support would be leader and they would pick the people to lead each policy area. What you would see is people taking decisions based on political leaning rather than geographical interests.

If you care about Britain the EU model is best. If you care more about socialism or any other political ideal then the Uk model is the one to go for.

Neither can you change the UK civil service. You can change the commissioner in exactly the same way as you can change the chancellor or home secretary. There really is very little difference.

Seriously, arguing that the EU is undemocratic compared to the UK is going to get you into lots of trouble. Do some research before repeating the memes of leavers.

The UK has a government with over 1/2 the seats in parliament based on 36.9% of the vote.
Another party has 8.6% of the seats on 4.7% of the vote
A third has 0.15% of the seats with 12.7% of the vote.

And as you are rather keen on un-elected people making law please explain how the House of Lords is in any way fair and how having an un-elected upper chamber represents a democratic system.

Except they do. The members elected by the government of Each country propose laws just as the officials appointed by the PM do it in the UK. All my points as to why the Uk parliament is less democratic stand.

Exactly the same way as they do in the UK parliament.

No it is correct.

The only way I can introduce a new law in the UK is to lobby the Minister, in Europe I would lobby the commissioner.
However I am more than happy for you to attempt to correct me and tell me I can effect a law in the UK.

Pen and paper or an email perhaps. As I have explained before it is the same as if I wanted to lobby the UK home Secretary.
I can't vote the commissioner out of office neither can I vote the defence minister out of office. I can only vote for my MP. Both the commissioner and the defense minister are decided by the party with the most votes. Everytime there is a change of Government the defence minister and commissioner changes."

I will say you have persecution complex if you consider all that is accusations that you are ignorant and xenophobic

London is not a country.

I don't see the relevance. Why are you opposed to the idea of self-determination for Londoners?

Support that with citations, please: show where I've engaged in such behaviour here.

Ok some samples from the same last 5 pages.

There is no one as blind as one who will not see.

You clearly have no idea why people argue for what they argue.

You are accusing me of dishonesty. Do you even know what the term means?



You simply don't understand my argument.

This shows that you have no clue what the discussion is about.

That is a stupid analogy.

Yeah, this is because, once again, you have no clue what I'm discussing.

What's banal is your current inability to understand the point.

No, that's stupid.

How about you ...shut the **** up ?

Your unwillingness to listen, understand and consider what people who disagree with you are saying is not anyone's fault but your own.

Nonsense.

 

[Lothian]

As mentioned above, Melton Mowbray pork pies and Stilton are certainly worthy of their inclusion in the list of protected foods.

Wensleydale!

 

[The Don]

Wensleydale!

Cumberland Sausage

edited to add....

Sorry, Traditional Cumberland Sausage

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Wensleydale!

Oh no, Brings me out in a rash

 

[catsmate]

Leafing further into the latest Private Eye I saw a cartoon.

A boss is handing a sad looking man a P45 and the caption is

"Congratulations ! You've taken back control of your future, Dennis"

 

[MCel58]

You appreciate that the context of my post was in relation to elections? There is no upcoming election.

I appreciate that but this will be the second time in the last 12 years that a new Prime Minister and Cabinet will be chosen with no vote by the electorate. There was a lot of fuss when the Labour Party did this with Gordon Brown and he was still following the manifesto that the party was elected on, this time not even that will be the case as there was no manifesto for a post leave vote. Please note that I am not suggesting that we do not leave the EU but that the electorate do have a right to vote on a manifesto of the policy and statutes that will now happen. I think there should be a promise of a general election at the end of the Article 50 negotiations.

 

[MikeG]

I appreciate that but this will be the second time in the last 12 years that a new Prime Minister and Cabinet will be chosen with no vote by the electorate. There was a lot of fuss when the Labour Party did this with Gordon Brown and he was still following the manifesto that the party was elected on, this time not even that will be the case as there was no manifesto for a post leave vote. Please note that I am not suggesting that we do not leave the EU but that the electorate do have a right to vote on a manifesto of the policy and statutes that will now happen. I think there should be a promise of a general election at the end of the Article 50 negotiations.

We now have the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, so we know the date of the next election will be 2020. Given that Article 50 negotiations should finish 2 years from when they start, and that Article 50 won't be triggered until after September when the new PM is in place, the likely end of the negotiations is late 2018/ early 2019. It isn't clear to me that there is any plausible mechanism for bringing an election forward. How would you suggest that the FTPA be circumvented to allow an early election?

 

[catsmate]

I believe this is a good metaphor for the results of Brexit.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

We now have the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, so we know the date of the next election will be 2020. Given that Article 50 negotiations should finish 2 years from when they start, and that Article 50 won't be triggered until after September when the new PM is in place, the likely end of the negotiations is late 2018/ early 2019. It isn't clear to me that there is any plausible mechanism for bringing an election forward. How would you suggest that the FTPA be circumvented to allow an early election?

Royal prerogative at the request of the prime minister?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

1) That the EU's democratic system is unsatisfactory.

2) That the UK should have a greater control over its laws and regulations, and immigration policies.

Lets try a different tack and see if we can agree on something.

Would you agree that if 1 and 2 above are your concerns then leaving the EU and 'joining' the EEA will not fix them?

1. As EEA members the democratic system would be worse as we would still be compelled to follow EU law without even having representation in the commision.

2. We would be required to maintain freedom of movement as part of the EEA agreement in order to access the free market.

And that thus some values of 'leaving the EU' are not the same as other values of 'leaving the EU' for some/many voters?

I put it to you then that it was really beholden on those who propose Leaving the EU to define to some reasonable extent what they were actually proposing at least whether it was an EEA option or a full exit. Even now we don't know what it is people actually voted for.

 

[Lothian]

We now have the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, so we know the date of the next election will be 2020. Given that Article 50 negotiations should finish 2 years from when they start, and that Article 50 won't be triggered until after September when the new PM is in place, the likely end of the negotiations is late 2018/ early 2019. It isn't clear to me that there is any plausible mechanism for bringing an election forward. How would you suggest that the FTPA be circumvented to allow an early election?

How about the House of Commons passing the following motion in parliament “That there shall be an early parliamentary general election.”

It is hardly rocket science.

 

[abaddon]

I believe this is a good metaphor for the results of Brexit.

I shouldn't LOL because real people died...but LOL. Such are the fruits of primitive superstition.

 

[Ambrosia]

A good point.
Is there any distinctly "English" food of value?

Yes there is.

There are over 700 named cheeses for starters just from England. Some of the recipes date back to the 14th century.

There's more diversity and variety in English food than most people realise. English cuisine rivals just about any other country you can care to name.

Recently we've been inundated with American style fast food outlets, and local pubs, which have been the bastions of good, simple, home cooked, traditional English food have been replaced by large chains that churn out mediocre, reheated from frozen, 'pub meals'. That has adulterated the average persons idea of what 'pub grub' actually is.

There are pies, sausages, hotpots, stews, game, pates, terrines, jellies, seafoods, and a huge array of english puddings, jams and preserves.

 

[angrysoba]

Recently we've been inundated with American style fast food outlets, and local pubs, which have been the bastions of good, simple, home cooked, traditional English food have been replaced by large chains that churn out mediocre, reheated from frozen, 'pub meals'. That has adulterated the average persons idea of what 'pub grub' actually is.

There are pies, sausages, hotpots, stews, game, pates, terrines, jellies, seafoods, and a huge array of english puddings, jams and preserves.

That's what British people like. I don't think leaving the EU is going to change that.

 

[Lothian]

Yes there is.

There are over 700 named cheeses for starters just from England. Some of the recipes date back to the 14th century.

There's more diversity and variety in English food than most people realise. English cuisine rivals just about any other country you can care to name.

Recently we've been inundated with American style fast food outlets, and local pubs, which have been the bastions of good, simple, home cooked, traditional English food have been replaced by large chains that churn out mediocre, reheated from frozen, 'pub meals'. That has adulterated the average persons idea of what 'pub grub' actually is.

There are pies, sausages, hotpots, stews, game, pates, terrines, jellies, seafoods, and a huge array of english puddings, jams and preserves.

fixed

 

[MikeG]

Royal prerogative at the request of the prime minister?

That can't over-ride the rule of law without, again, another constitutional crisis.

 

[The Don]

Recently we've been inundated with American style fast food outlets, and local pubs, which have been the bastions of good, simple, home cooked, traditional English food have been replaced by large chains that churn out mediocre, reheated from frozen, 'pub meals'. That has adulterated the average persons idea of what 'pub grub' actually is..

When was this "golden age" of pub grub ? IMO it's as good, if not better, now than it has ever been. I remember the days of tepid chicken-in-a-basket and grim ploughmans lunches served with Mothers Pride bread.

Go back further and it was even worse. If you were lucky they had a jar of pickled eggs behind the bar.