Merged Now What?

[Belz...]

What does Leave the EU actually mean? If we stay in the EEA and have freedom of movement and contribute a much or more than we currently do will people who voted Leave be happy with that?

I'm not British so I can't answer that, but I know that "leave the EU" means "leave the EU".

Again I didn't misrepresent the arguments I asked for them. Yet again you don't want to give them. Nobody does.

There is no one as blind as one who will not see.

EU laws originate from the commission. The commission has 28 commissioners put forward by the government of each country. They each have a policy area and put forward laws with are voted on by representatives of the public and governments.
I fail to see how that is less democratic than the Uk situation

Because you can't replace the commission through elections.

 

[Belz...]

Not legitimate. The UK has a parliament wether or not it's in the EU. It's not a question of either or.

EU laws can overturn UK laws. Of course it's legitimate.

Just because you disagree with a reason doesn't make it not legitimate. I think you're confusing terms, here.

So it's responsible to not let people know what they vote for and telling porkies instead?

That is so removed from anything I've said that I'm starting to wonder if you're deliberately refusing to allow any sort of understanding on this issue.

 

[Belz...]

1. Doesn't sound any less, let alone far less, democratic to me.

It may be just a matter of perspective, then, but as I've said above, that you disagree doesn't make the reason illegitimate.

2. Not quite sure what you are getting at. The UK can refuse people if they have good reason to.

They have EU passports. They'd need a very compelling reason to refuse entry to someone like that.

What is the concern that you have over not being able to refuse entry? One that isn't based on xenophobia and racism of course.

The UK can refuse entry for whatever reason they see fit. The problem is imposing those reasons on them.

For myself, I would say refusing people who are incompatible with the culture and laws of my country seems reasonable. And that has nothing to do with xenophobia. If you think it does, then you are using the word wrong, and using it as a blanket way to label and dismiss those who disagree with you for legitimate reasons.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm not British so I can't answer that, but I know that "leave the EU" means "leave the EU".



There is no one as blind as one who will not see.



Because you can't replace the commission through elections.

You can't replace the PM or cabinet through elections either. We're about to have a PM that didn't win any election. We have the Lords. We have bishops in the lords. We have a monarchy.

No this democracy angle is a red herring. A smokescreen

 

[McHrozni]

Because you can't replace the commission through elections.

Not directly, you affect it through national elections, which changes the composition of the Council of the EU, which elects the Commission.

A reform for direct elections of councilors may not be a bad idea, but the argument the Commission is somehow undemocratic just isn't true.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It may be just a matter of perspective, then, but as I've said above, that you disagree doesn't make the reason illegitimate.



They have EU passports. They'd need a very compelling reason to refuse entry to someone like that.



The UK can refuse entry for whatever reason they see fit. The problem is imposing those reasons on them.

For myself, I would say refusing people who are incompatible with the culture and laws of my country seems reasonable. And that has nothing to do with xenophobia. If you think it does, then you are using the word wrong, and using it as a blanket way to label and dismiss those who disagree with you for legitimate reasons.

Who are these people who are so incompatible with the culture and laws?

Shouldn't you have a compelling reason to refuse someone entry ? Or should any old bigoted reason be OK?

Incidentally you keep saying disagreeing with something doesn't make it illegitimate the opposite is also true. Agreeing with it doesn't make it legitimate. Especially if it's just thinly veiled xenophobia and islamophobia.

 

[Belz...]

In a nutshell that is why I voted to leave, and why I would vote Leave again if I knew then what I know now.

Smaller governments and states are better anyway. It allows better control by the electorate and represents that population better as well. It also avoids culture clashes; I don't think serbia and the UK are sufficiently alike to agree on most policies, or to want one to decide for the other.

 

[The Don]

I'm not British so I can't answer that, but I know that "leave the EU" means "leave the EU".

True, but as you're a smart person who keeps abreast of international developments and you've read this thread then you're aware that there's a wide range of options for the UK once it has left the EU.

At one end of the spectrum, there's the "Norwegian Model" where, in order to secure access to the EEA the UK has to comply with EU regulations, allow the free movement of people to and from the EU and make a significant financial to the EU. Even though the UK would have left the EU, in effect it would have left the EU in name only.

At the other end of the spectrum, the UK could just treat the EU as it would any other trading partner, indeed it could make a conscious decision to turn it's back on the EU so to speak by making trade deals with non-EU countries which has the effect of worsening the terms that the EU would be otherwise be willing to come to.

I'd argue that it was clear what the Leave campaign was voting against (continued membership of the EU) but it was not clear what post-Brexit situation they were voting for (or, given that it's unreasonable to expect them to forecast the results of Brexit negotiations - what post-Brexit position they were aiming for).

IMO it's as logical as me, Mrs Don and the catbeasts having a vote to decide whether or not to move house with no idea where we might be moving to - and then blaming those who campaigned and voted not to move for not having found a new house and not having booked the removal van - and blaming them again further on down the road when it turns out that the new house is in poor condition and in a cruddy neighbourhood.

 

[Belz...]

You can't replace the PM or cabinet through elections either. We're about to have a PM that didn't win any election. We have the Lords. We have bishops in the lords. We have a monarchy.

No this democracy angle is a red herring. A smokescreen

It's not a smokescreen, it's my opinion about how the EU system works. You can disagree with it but don't tell me that it's a lie.

Who are these people who are so incompatible with the culture and laws?

What, are you asking me to name names? I'm talking about the principle behind all this. Did you really not understand that, or is this a knee-jerk reaction that any argument not entirely in favour of all forms of immigration is xenophobia?

Shouldn't you have a compelling reason to refuse someone entry ?

You should have a "good" reason, maybe. Someone else might argue that you should have a "good" reason to allow someone entry.

Incidentally you keep saying disagreeing with something doesn't make it illegitimate the opposite is also true. Agreeing with it doesn't make it legitimate.

True, but irrelevant.

Especially if it's just thinly veiled xenophobia and islamophobia.

There's that knee-jerk reaction again. You clearly have no idea why people argue for what they argue. You just assume.

 

[McHrozni]

I don't think serbia and the UK are sufficiently alike to agree on most policies, or to want one to decide for the other.

I don't think Serbia is a member of the EU, or likely to join in the near future either.

Part of the accession process is becoming sufficiently alike the rest of EU on all critical points.

McHrozni

 

[Belz...]

True, but as you're a smart person who keeps abreast of international developments and you've read this thread then you're aware that there's a wide range of options for the UK once it has left the EU.

Sure, but since it's not for me to decide, and since I'm not informed enough about those options, I cannot give you an informed response; I can only say that it's up to the UK to cook up a plan, now.

 

[The Don]

Smaller governments and states are better anyway. It allows better control by the electorate and represents that population better as well. It also avoids culture clashes;

That's a matter of opinion rather than a statement of fact. Another way of viewing the same situation is that local rules and laws maintain the kinds of societal and cultural differences that lead to conflict.

I don't think serbia and the UK are sufficiently alike to agree on most policies, or to want one to decide for the other.

Just as well that Serbia isn't in the EU then.

 

[McHrozni]

There's that knee-jerk reaction again. You clearly have no idea why people argue for what they argue. You just assume.

Which groups, other than Muslims, bother you?

McHrozni

 

[Belz...]

I don't think Serbia is a member of the EU, or likely to join in the near future either.

Please, Mc. I was using it as an extreme example. Take Poland if you want, instead, but at least address what I said.

 

[Belz...]

That's a matter of opinion rather than a statement of fact.

Of course it's an opinion. Everything that's been said on this thread is an opinion, but opinions can be based on facts, too.

Just as well that Serbia isn't in the EU then.

See above.

Which groups, other than Muslims, bother you?

See, this is something that bothers me in the extreme. Assuming that Muslims do bother me, which they do not, why would that be such a discussion-ender for you? What is it about discussing this topic that is so uncomfortable for you that you have to shut it down with thinly-veiled accusations of racism at every turn?

 

[McHrozni]

Please, Mc. I was using it as an extreme example. Take Poland if you want, instead, but at least address what I said.

I did, you said Serbia and I addressed Serbia.

What's so ghastly different between UK and Poland that you guys are unable to come to terms to?

McHrozni

 

[Tolls]

Not directly, you affect it through national elections, which changes the composition of the Council of the EU, which elects the Commission.

A reform for direct elections of councilors may not be a bad idea, but the argument the Commission is somehow undemocratic just isn't true.

McHrozni

Isn't the Commission put together after an EU Parliament election? The Parliament can veto the Commission as a whole.
Never mind that the commissioners themselves are picked by the government of the day in each member state.

So we do have a say, via both our own government and the EU parliament.

 

[McHrozni]

See, this is something that bothers me in the extreme. Assuming that Muslims do bother me, which they do not, why would that be such a discussion-ender for you?

It's not, but you repeatedly implied certain foreign-born groups bother you. Muslims would be the most common of the lot, but if it's not then, who is?

Which foreign-born groups would you deny entry to, and why?

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

Sure, but since it's not for me to decide, and since I'm not informed enough about those options, I cannot give you an informed response; I can only say that it's up to the UK to cook up a plan, now.

It is. The notable thing so far is that the people most prominent in getting us into this position are least prominent when it comes to getting that plan together.

Given that 48% of the population who bothered to vote voted to Lemain and that at least some of those who voted to Leave want to remain in the EEA it would seem that a Norway type solution is on the cards. That of course will enrage the out-out voters who will no doubt cling to their fantasy that they would have managed to negotiate the perfect (for them) deal for the UK.

 

[McHrozni]

Isn't the Commission put together after an EU Parliament election? The Parliament can veto the Commission as a whole.
Never mind that the commissioners themselves are picked by the government of the day in each member state.

So we do have a say, via both our own government and the EU parliament.

That's how it is, yes. The entire thing is entirely democratic, and assertions to the contrary are either ignorance or stupidity.

McHrozni