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New Disclosures on Benghazi - Part II

I agree with most of your points. But looking at what you wrote, what leads to be less likely to vote for Clinton. I see very little substance in your words to warrant it. I see nothing that doesn't happen often when crisis occur. Add to it that she was attacked from day one. There must be something I'm missing.


It's not a huge deal. It's not an "I would vote for Hillary, except I can never forgive her for Benghazi" sort of thing.

I just don't like the way she was part of the inaccurate impressions created in the aftermath. I don't think the administration did a good job explaining what happened. I think there was a lot of confusion, and they spread that confusion in their comments to the media.

Is that unforgivable? No, but it isn't a positive for her. There's nothing about either United States policy toward Libya, or this incident specifically, that makes me think that I would really like to see the person who was in charge of that policy be in charge of the whole country and all foreign policy.
 
The main difference is that the Republicans were not using scorched earth tactics to defend their President at all costs (they never do). The Democrats today do. It is literally impossible to investigate the executive branch if almost half of Congress acts as its Praetorian guard. Especially if the media has no interest, which it almost never does when a Democrat is President.
Here's a question. How many special prosecutors have been sicked on the Obama administration? Answer: Zero. How many Congressional investigations have led to a single resignation or punishment of an executive branch officer? Answer: One. Do you think it's because the Obama administration has been relatively scandal free? I can reel off half a dozen off the top of my head. Here's a more comprehensive list.

I would say that the ATF gunwalking scandal (which included undisputed lying to Congress by the DOJ), the IRS targeting scandal, the PRISM surveillance scandal, the investigations of reporters pursuant to the Espionage Act, and the VA scandal all merited a bipartisan Congressional investigation at a minimum, and probably a special prosecutor in most of the cases. The Democrats never cooperated on any of those scandals. They only obstructed.
You have a very interesting perspective there and I doubt that it would be possible for me to convince you otherwise. I will only point out that it usually helps strengthen an argument by rooting at least a significant part of it in reality rather than in an alternative universe opposite in its properties from that of our own. But if that's what you believe...

That said, I am certain that you know that Congress has much the same power of a special prosecutor (often now called an independent council) - subpoena power, the power to summon testimony under oath, the ability to hold a witness in contempt of Congress, etc.- more power in many ways ways than special prosecutors appointed by the Attorney General (and thus subject to potential influence by the executive branch). Yet with ALL the Congressional investigations and repeated intense efforts by the Republicans, so very little dirt has been found. To the point that right-wings diehards are suggesting a conspiracy between Obama and his Republican opponents to protect Obama! One might even wonder why the Republican congress has been so reluctant to request appointment of a special prosecutor if they were convinced that this was the correct method to obtain THE TRUTH. Perhaps they had some other motive?

There have been only 3 Federal special prosecutors appointed in the USA since 1978. It appears to be very rarely used. Again it is hard not to read this type of argument as "Well, since I believe the Obama administration has been guilty of multiple scandals, any investigation that fails to prove this must by my definition have been flawed." Rather than the logical conclusion- there wasn't much dirt there after all.

Just as an aside- I gather that you now agree that Nixon did not in fact cooperate with the committees and individuals investigating him, and yet still had his crimes revealed and driven from office?
 
You have a very interesting perspective there and I doubt that it would be possible for me to convince you otherwise. I will only point out that it usually helps strengthen an argument by rooting at least a significant part of it in reality rather than in an alternative universe opposite in its properties from that of our own. But if that's what you believe...

I'm loving the projection you're suffering. I feel exactly the same way about you.

That said, I am certain that you know that Congress has much the same power of a special prosecutor (often now called an independent council) - subpoena power, the power to summon testimony under oath, the ability to hold a witness in contempt of Congress, etc.- more power in many ways ways than special prosecutors appointed by the Attorney General (and thus subject to potential influence by the executive branch).

That's completely wrong. Lois Lerner and Eric Holder were held in contempt of Congress. What good did that do? The Obama administration has repeatedly withheld documents by claiming executive privilege, and then it takes 3 years in the courts to prove that their claims of privilege are bogus. And then they still don't release documents, or only release some of them or redacted versions, or only allow Congressional investigators to read them and take notes but not actually have copies.

Yet with ALL the Congressional investigations and repeated intense efforts by the Republicans, so very little dirt has been found.

They've found tons of dirt. But Congressional Democrats just deny it or explain it away, and the media then treats the issue as a partisan one. Did you know that the Department of Justice and Eric Holder flat out lied to Congress about the ATF gunwalking program. For 11 months? And then when it was finally (and miraculously) proved beyond a reasonable doubt that they had lied, they apologized, said it was inadvertent, and then suffered no consequences? You probably don't even know about this because the media just sort of ignored it. They would never have done so if it were a Republican administration which had been caught in an egregious lie.

To the point that right-wings diehards are suggesting a conspiracy between Obama and his Republican opponents to protect Obama! One might even wonder why the Republican congress has been so reluctant to request appointment of a special prosecutor if they were convinced that this was the correct method to obtain THE TRUTH. Perhaps they had some other motive?

They have requested special prosecutors. Multiple times. It has to be done by the DOJ though, which is under the control of the President. If the President, or his DOJ, is acting in bad faith, as the current one is, then one simply won't be appointed. Don't you think that a special prosecutor was called for in the case of the ATF scandal? The ATF is a division of the DOJ after all. How can they possibly be trusted to investigate themselves? The same thing with the IRS scandal. If that scandal went to the top, how could the executive branch possibly be trusted to investigate it honestly?

There have been only 3 Federal special prosecutors appointed in the USA since 1978. It appears to be very rarely used.

That's completely wrong. You're probably confused because there was an Office of Independent Counsel law in operation from 1978 to 1999, and the special prosecutors were called Independent Counsels. There have been many, many independent investigations operating with the power of the DOJ but outside the influence of the DOJ.

Again it is hard not to read this type of argument as "Well, since I believe the Obama administration has been guilty of multiple scandals, any investigation that fails to prove this must by my definition have been flawed." Rather than the logical conclusion- there wasn't much dirt there after all.

The Obama administration has been ridiculously corrupt. Any one of half a dozen different scandals would have completely dominated a Republican administration. Just look at the Valerie Plame outing investigation, or the district attorneys firings under Bush. Both led to severe consequences for people in the administration, and they severely hurt the administration's credibility and dominated the news cycles for years. Both were very minor kerfuffles compared to the ATF gunwalking scandal or the IRS scandal. I'd put the Valerie Plame scandal on a lower level than the leaks from the Obama administration concerning details of the Osama bin Laden hit or the Stuxnet virus (both of which barely merited a discussion in the media). The district attorneys firings pale in comparison to the rampant reverse racism in the DOJ Office of Civil Rights under Obama and the whole Title IX crap to strip due process rights from college students accused of sexual harassment, let alone the gunwalking scandal.

Just as an aside- I gather that you now agree that Nixon did not in fact cooperate with the committees and individuals investigating him, and yet still had his crimes revealed and driven from office?

He was forced to cooperate on certain things by a bipartisan investigation. The key word there is bipartisan. Even then, however, if he had gone to the lengths that Obama or Hillary have gone to withhold or destroy evidence, then Nixon would have gotten off scot-free, and right now Watergate would be remembered as a nothingburger.
 
It's not a huge deal. It's not an "I would vote for Hillary, except I can never forgive her for Benghazi" sort of thing.

I just don't like the way she was part of the inaccurate impressions created in the aftermath. I don't think the administration did a good job explaining what happened. I think there was a lot of confusion, and they spread that confusion in their comments to the media.

Is that unforgivable? No, but it isn't a positive for her. There's nothing about either United States policy toward Libya, or this incident specifically, that makes me think that I would really like to see the person who was in charge of that policy be in charge of the whole country and all foreign policy.
Thanks - I understand what you're saying.
 
Do Republicans give the slightest **** about how uncooperative Dubya was with the 9/11 commission (they had one short meeting, with Darth Cheney by his side, off the record), and how he ignored many warnings of an impending terrorist attack?

Do Republicans give the slightest **** about all embassy attacks that happened under Dubya's watch?

Do Republicans give the slightest **** about the marine barracks bombing that happened under God-President Reagan's watch?

No, of course not. Because they are Republicans.

You people have zero credibility whatsoever.
 
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Does tony stark know what a tu quoque fallacy is? Does he know why it is fallacious? Does it make Obama any better to compare him to Bush?

Nope!

Keep up the great work tony!
 
Does tony stark know what a tu quoque fallacy is? Does he know why it is fallacious? Does it make Obama any better to compare him to Bush?

Nope!

Keep up the great work tony!
I'm not saying anything about Obama. Just pointing out the obvious, extreme level of dishonesty and hypocrisy you Republicans have.
 
Do Republicans give the slightest **** about how uncooperative Dubya was with the 9/11 commission (they had one short meeting, with Darth Cheney by his side, off the record), and how he ignored many warnings of an impending terrorist attack?

Do Republicans give the slightest **** about all embassy attacks that happened under Dubya's watch?

Do Republicans give the slightest **** about the marine barracks bombing that happened under God-President Reagan's watch?

No, of course not. Because they are Republicans.

You people have zero credibility whatsoever.

well, they care only to the extent they can blame them on a Democrat. And on how much they can use the victim's gravesites in campaign ads.
 
Where are all the forum right-winger posts on all the terror related American deaths during GW's watch? Didn't a couple embassies get blown up? What a crock of excrement trying to make it look like the Obama watch was incompetent. How many thousand soldiers and contractors died in that useless Iraq war of GW's that accomplished nothing but spreading the Muslim extremists contamination over half the planet?

What is it with you guys? Sunmaster14, Ziggy, I'm looking at you. Why have you given GW a pass for his humongous mess while you think we should all be up in arms over 4 more deaths in Benghazi?
 
Where are all the forum right-winger posts on all the terror related American deaths during GW's watch? Didn't a couple embassies get blown up? What a crock of excrement trying to make it look like the Obama watch was incompetent. How many thousand soldiers and contractors died in that useless Iraq war of GW's that accomplished nothing but spreading the Muslim extremists contamination over half the planet?

What is it with you guys? Sunmaster14, Ziggy, I'm looking at you. Why have you given GW a pass for his humongous mess while you think we should all be up in arms over 4 more deaths in Benghazi?
Easy. Dubya is a Republican. That's all there is to it.
 
Easy. Dubya is a Republican. That's all there is to it.
Sorry, just getting sick of all this Obama/Clinton bashing. This is still a skeptic's forum isn't it? Where are all the :rule10 critical thinkers among the right wingers here? Where's the perspective?
 
Sorry, just getting sick of all this Obama/Clinton bashing. This is still a skeptic's forum isn't it? Where are all the :rule10 critical thinkers among the right wingers here? Where's the perspective?

where indeed. Why don"t Hillary fans call out their compatriots for their insipid B-b-Bu-But Bush tu quoque fallacies, their profound ignorance of the facts, their gross misrepresentations regarding things like Judge Sullivan's order.

we get it, leave Hillary alone.
 
where indeed. Why don"t Hillary fans call out their compatriots for their insipid B-b-Bu-But Bush tu quoque fallacies, their profound ignorance of the facts, their gross misrepresentations regarding things like Judge Sullivan's order.

we get it, leave Hillary alone.
It is not a time quoque to point out the extreme hypocrisy and dishonesty of you Republicans.
 
lolz! God, I hope you are joking.

If not, CLASSIC!
Tu quoque would be if I argued that the allegations of wrongdoing against Obama/Hillary are false because of the extreme hypocrisy and dishonesty of Republicans.

They are false on the merits (as shown by eight different Republican led investigations) AND Republicans are extremely dishonest and hypocritical. It could not be more clear that the only reason you people even pretend that you care about Benghazi is because you believe it can help you politically. It is disgusting.
 
Tu quoque would be if I argued that the allegations of wrongdoing against Obama/Hillary are false because of the extreme hypocrisy and dishonesty of Republicans.

They are false on the merits (as shown by eight different Republican led investigations) AND Republicans are extremely dishonest and hypocritical. It could not be more clear that the only reason you people even pretend that you care about Benghazi is because you believe it can help you politically. It is disgusting.

I see just blatant personal attacks.

As I said? Classic!
 

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