Board-certified psychiatrist diagnoses demonic possession...

[Bob001]

This shrink believes in spirits:

The same habits that shape what I do as a professor and psychiatrist — open-mindedness, respect for evidence and compassion for suffering people — led me to aid in the work of discerning attacks by what I believe are evil spirits .....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ss-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/#comments

This guy doesn't just believe that patients can imagine they are possessed; he claims that they are possessed as a matter of fact. Question: Can someone who actively believes in the supernatural actually function as a scientist and physician?

 

[fagin]

He's probably possessed.

 

[marplots]

He's probably possessed.

Possession is 9/10ths of the woo.

 

[Babbylonian]

This guy doesn't just believe that patients can imagine they are possessed; he claims that they are possessed as a matter of fact. Question: Can someone who actively believes in the supernatural actually function as a scientist and physician?

Yes, because they do and have done so throughout the history of science/medicine.

In this case, though, the belief is affecting how he does his job as a psychiatrist and he should be evaluated as to whether or not he should continue to be licensed to treat patients.

From the link:

But my subject’s behavior exceeded what I could explain with my training. She could tell some people their secret weaknesses, such as undue pride.

"Undue pride?" Everyone suffers from this weakness to some degree in some area of their life. This sentence tells me about all I need to know about this guy's [in]competence.

She knew how individuals she’d never known had died, including my mother and her fatal case of ovarian cancer.

Probably a hot reading but a cold reading could lead to the same place depending on the age of the subject - a relatively young person (under 40) with a dead parent means that cancer would be high in the differential [guess] diagnosis for that parent.

Six people later vouched to me that, during her exorcisms, they heard her speaking multiple languages, including Latin, completely unfamiliar to her outside of her trances. This was not psychosis; it was what I can only describe as paranormal ability. I concluded that she was possessed. Much later, she permitted me to tell her story.

There is no way that this is science.

And this is the patient that convinced him. It's a damned shame that he didn't have his license taken away a long time ago.

 

[Magrat]

Well...psychiatrists were talked into believing in multiple personalities by convincing patients. And got a diagnosis code in the books. Perhaps this is the new Sybil.

Never let it be said a psychiatrist allowed reality to get in the way of self promotion.

 

[Babbylonian]

Well...psychiatrists were talked into believing in multiple personalities by convincing patients. And got a diagnosis code in the books. Perhaps this is the new Sybil.

Never let it be said a psychiatrist allowed reality to get in the way of self promotion.

It's one thing if a psychiatrist is convinced that a patient has a psychiatric illness even if they don't; there are obviously patients in the world who are smarter than the doctors they consult and a charismatic patient can be convincing even to someone practiced at separating truth from fiction. It's even acceptable (in the sense that anyone can make a mistake) for a psychiatrist to misdiagnose the condition of a patient. Neither is ideal but they fall within the range of acceptable error as long as the error isn't recurrent.

But being convinced of the existence of evil spirits/possession based on the statements of others (including the patient) goes over the line and will likely result in improper treatment of psychiatric patients.

It's okay to have crazy beliefs, even if one is a scientist, as long as it doesn't interfere with the science one is conducting/applying. For example, a geologist who believes in fairies can still be a competent geologist, while a geologist could hardly be expected to function adequately if they're convinced that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

 

[steve s]

"Undue pride?" Everyone suffers from this weakness to some degree in some area of their life. This sentence tells me about all I need to know about this guy's [in]competence.

Apparently this guy has never heard of the Forer effect (a.k.a the Barnum effect)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect

There is no way that this is science.

And this is the patient that convinced him. It's a damned shame that he didn't have his license taken away a long time ago.

Unless these people were fluent in Latin and could tell what she was saying, how would they know it really was Latin?
Years ago, a TV show aired what was claimed to be a real exorcism. At one point the subject said "Ugga, bugga, wugga." They declared that the exorcism must be real because she was speaking ancient languages that she couldn't possibly have known.

Steve S

 

[Magrat]

Apparently this guy has never heard of the Forer effect (a.k.a the Barnum effect)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect




Unless these people were fluent in Latin and could tell what she was saying, how would they know it really was Latin?
Years ago, a TV show aired what was claimed to be a real exorcism. At one point the subject said "Ugga, bugga, wugga." They declared that the exorcism must be real because she was speaking ancient languages that she couldn't possibly have known.

Steve S

To "speak" Latin just add "um" and "ae" to the end of everything. Doctorum evictus spiritus meus! I actually known Latin..why on earth would "demons" speak it anyway? Were they roman demons?

 

[Hungry81]

To "speak" Latin just add "um" and "ae" to the end of everything. Doctorum evictus spiritus meus! I actually known Latin..why on earth would "demons" speak it anyway? Were they roman demons?

Yeah. Also this brings the question. Were demons unable to communicate before Roman times? Even if they knew latin before the Romans did, how did they communicate their evil intents to say the ancient greeks, chinese, egyptians or norsemen? Could it be that demons are not actually evil? They may have just gone insane from millenia of frustration and loneliness.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

 

[3point14]

Years ago, a TV show aired what was claimed to be a real exorcism. At one point the subject said "Ugga, bugga, wugga." They declared that the exorcism must be real because she was speaking ancient languages that she couldn't possibly have known.

Steve S

Yosemite Sam is similarly afflicted.

 

[blutoski]

This shrink believes in spirits:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ss-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/#comments

This guy doesn't just believe that patients can imagine they are possessed; he claims that they are possessed as a matter of fact. Question: Can someone who actively believes in the supernatural actually function as a scientist and physician?

Answer: most of the time, yes. The big threats to competence in my experience are overwork, age, and conflict of interest. I'd advise action on those long before I start investigating superstitious beliefs.

This is an edge case, and even then, he's possibly not impacting is practice by the sound of it.

Specifically, compare his attention grabbing article title with this passage:

I technically do not make my own “diagnosis” of possession but inform the clergy that the symptoms in question have no conceivable medical cause.

In a way, this happens all the time and is not controversial in other contexts. There are psychiatric patients who are faking mental illness, and by definition this means "there's no medical cause" - a psychiatrist would be doing the right thing to report this, for example, in a court of law inquiring about the patient's condition. A comparable example would be Desiree Jennings... an MD could report truthfully that there's no medical reason she's walking strangely. It's just attention-seeking behavior.

The part that is iffy in my opinion is this: what right does an outsider like the clergy have to medical information about his patients? Is he leaking patients' medical histories (or lack thereof) to a 3rd party? I think this is where the College has an interest.

 

[cullennz]

I can speak about 10 languages when I perform excorcisms.

8 of them are not real and totally made up, but I can speak them

 

[Trebuchet]

Just more verification of TheTrebuchet Effect: Many smart, highly educated people believe ridiculous stuff. I myself believe that pumpkins can fly.

 

[cullennz]

Just more verification of TheTrebuchet Effect: Many smart, highly educated people believe ridiculous stuff. I myself believe that pumpkins can fly.

Back a step.

Which variety of pumpkin before I consider it

 

[Trebuchet]

Any variety can fly, but the thin-walled ones are more likely to be scored as "Pie" when fired from an air cannon. The orange mist is impressive, however.

 

[Babbylonian]

This is an edge case, and even then, he's possibly not impacting is practice by the sound of it.

Specifically, compare his attention grabbing article title with this passage...

The problem I see there is that there is no medical treatment for demonic possession (or a way to diagnose such if it exists). If the psychiatrist believes in it and believes a patient has it, treatment would end (what could the psychiatrist do besides hand the patient over to clergy?) and the patient might not seek a second opinion and get treatment for an actual psychiatric condition. That's where malpractice comes in.

 

[truethat]

Well...psychiatrists were talked into believing in multiple personalities by convincing patients. And got a diagnosis code in the books. Perhaps this is the new Sybil.

Never let it be said a psychiatrist allowed reality to get in the way of self promotion.

This is the first thing that comes to my mind as well. I cannot believe how many people actually believe in DID.

 

[blutoski]

The problem I see there is that there is no medical treatment for demonic possession (or a way to diagnose such if it exists).

Correct. And he makes a point of emphasizing that he doesn't offer that as a diagnosis.

If the psychiatrist believes in it and believes a patient has it, treatment would end (what could the psychiatrist do besides hand the patient over to clergy?) and the patient might not seek a second opinion and get treatment for an actual psychiatric condition. That's where malpractice comes in.

It sounds like the diagnosis may be correct, though. If he's competently ruling out psychiatric diagnoses, then it is ethical to cease the relationship with the patient and they are free to consider alternatives.

In the case of a criminal who injures somebody because they're an asshat, the forensic psychiatrist rules out all diagnoses and the court proceeds to 'treat' the accused as they see fit. There are lots of behavioural therapies designed to address impulsiveness, tendencies toward violence, programs to reduce recidivism generally speaking. But none of them are psychiatric therapies, and that makes sense since the psychiatrist has ruled out any medical diagnosis.

 

[EHocking]

This shrink believes in spirits:

Well, he is also on the faculty of a Catholic seminary as well a regularly serving as the US delegate to the International Association of Exorcists.

He also has a book to sell.

 

[Babbylonian]

It sounds like the diagnosis may be correct, though. If he's competently ruling out psychiatric diagnoses, then it is ethical to cease the relationship with the patient and they are free to consider alternatives.

No. Absolutely not. Unless the psychiatrist believes that the patient is lying in aid of some agenda, then the patient has a psychological problem - even if the only manifestation of that problem is the patient's belief that s/he is possessed. Not treating such a problem would only be acceptable if there's a recommendation to talk to another mental health professional.

If psychiatrists want to specialize in possession cases, they are completely free to give up their medical licenses and perhaps join the clergy. As long as they want to remain practicing physicians, they should be dealing in science, not superstition.