Brexit: the referendum

[3point14]

Not likely to be all about a single phenomenon, any more than "all about Brussels/Strasbourg". Though I agree it is about that, but more so because of no income growth at the low end.

No, you're right. I'd hazard mostly or at least, a large portion of it

That suggests the rest of Europe will blame each other and exit too eventually.

I don't think that follows at all. Especially if (and I don't know if this is true) the voters in other EU countries are more informed.

 

[Craig B]

Someone just linked me this article from The Week and I thought it had some pretty good quotes in it which many here could benefit from reading, and really attempting to give honest consideration to:

The Week - How Brexit Shattered Progressives' Dearest Illusions

At least your post clarifies an important question. This is ALL ABOUT xenophobia. Everything else is mere window-dressing, smokescreens, whatever you want to call it.

 

[The Atheist]

But increasing inequality doesn't result in dissatisfaction nearly so much if there is still income growth across the spectrum. Actually even if there is not a whole lot other than inflation across it.

When there is neither that is trouble. There has been precious little of either since about 7 years.

This is a point that is being overlooked in most places, including those outside UK. I'm paying people 10% more than I was in 1996, yet inflation in that time has been well in excess of 20%. Housing, more like 200% in the same period.

It appears the lid is being kept on wages by immigration. Examples of wage stagnation directly attributable to migration include both legal (UK, NZ) and illegal (USA) migrants.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

At least your post clarifies an important question. This is ALL ABOUT xenophobia. Everything else is mere window-dressing, smokescreens, whatever you want to call it.

Any group which abandons xenophobia will cease to exist as a result of doing so. Only a matter of time.

 

[CapelDodger]

Before that.

The change from decreasing inequality during the Keynesian era to increasing post-Keynes is actually very clear.

But increasing inequality doesn't result in dissatisfaction nearly so much if there is still income growth across the spectrum. Actually even if there is not a whole lot other than inflation across it.

When there is neither that is trouble. There has been precious little of either since about 7 years.

There's been little increase in median wages in the developed world since at least the 90's. We have a lot more these days but that's because there's a lot more to have and it's remarkably cheap - I think that's called a hedonic increase, and I for one appreciate it. Computers and this internet thing are the bees knees, and cheap as chips.

Along with this problem of rising inequality in a rentier world economy comes insecurity in a world so new nobody understands how it works, least of all the community elders. No wonder people are increasingly cleaving to their own and building palisades.

It's all rather depressing, really. On the plus side, though, we've made a lot of progress since 1954, when I was born. No jetpack, admittedly, but I was never that keen myself.

 

[angrysoba]

Any group which abandons xenophobia will cease to exist as a result of doing so. Only a matter of time.

Utter rot. Stop trying to rationalize your bigoted hatred with lies.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Any group which abandons xenophobia will cease to exist as a result of doing so. Only a matter of time.

Why don't you pass the time by playing a little jenga?

 

[CapelDodger]

Any group which abandons xenophobia will cease to exist as a result of doing so.

Any group will cease to exist due to the demographic imperative.

Only a matter of time.

Exactly.

Any groups not abandoning xenophobia will face a grand coalition of those which do. Good luck with your grand coalition of xenophobes.

 

[dudalb]

Utter rot. Stop trying to rationalize your bigoted hatred with lies.

What can you expect? Lies about the only thing the bigots have to defend themselves with.......

 

[Andy_Ross]

I think I can hear the sound of plans being scrapped and itineraries diverted . . . .

I live just down the road on Teesside. It's a small world.

(Unconnected but, I am a Mod on the Cosmoquest Forum (former Bad Astronomy) and by coincidence two of the other mods on this world wide forum live within 40 miles if me.)

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Any group which abandons xenophobia will cease to exist as a result of doing so. Only a matter of time.

Every group ceases to exist in a matter of time. Anything we can do to expedite the demise of your little group of racists?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Mainly after Roman stuff. I'm finalizing the specifics over the next week or so, but I know I'll be hitting Arbeia, taking a trip out to Vindolanda, that sort of thing. I'll be hitting the National Centre for the Written Word as well. But first and foremost I'm doing my best to avoid anything typically 'touristy' (I'm staying at a BnB vs a huge hotel chain, for instance). Any and all suggestions would be most welcomed, thanks.

I am a Roman fan. I am part of a group of Reenactors. I just joined recently and I am still assembling my kit. (I hsve my Gallic 'H' Pattern Helmet and I am making my own Segmentata Armour and Brlt etc.
Amyway I have spent the year working my way through the Roman sites in the area Arbea at South Shields is good. They have reconstructed gateway, barrack block and Commanders house along with a good museum. It is run by the local council and is free.
Segedunum at Wallsend is good as well, they have a reconstructed Bath House and are at the start of the wall.
I have been working my way west along the wall and my next visit is Vindolanda on July the 9th, they have a big Roman Weekend with all kinds of reenactors and displays.
Housesteads is good and so is Corbridge and Chesters.

 

[dudalb]

I am a Roman fan. I am part of a group of Reenactors. I just joined recently and I am still assembling my kit. (I hsve my Gallic 'H' Pattern Helmet and I am making my own Segmentata Armour and Brlt etc.
Amyway I have spent the year working my way through the Roman sites in the area Arbea at South Shields is good. They have reconstructed gateway, barrack block and Commanders house along with a good museum. It is run by the local council and is free.
Segedunum at Wallsend is good as well, they have a reconstructed Bath House and are at the start of the wall.
I have been working my way west along the wall and my next visit is Vindolanda on July the 9th, they have a big Roman Weekend with all kinds of reenactors and displays.
Housesteads is good and so is Corbridge and Chesters.

I do reeanctments at Sutter's Fort State Park in Sacramento, set in the year 1846,(the year that California changed hands between Mexico and the US;that is reason the State Park system chose that year to do)and we have a lot of fun with Mexican officials come to try to kick out all the illegal Anglo immigrants,,,,,

 

[CapelDodger]

I am a Roman fan.

Everybody said that back in the day. OK, perhaps not at first, but damn' quick.

I am part of a group of Reenactors. I just joined recently and I am still assembling my kit. (I hsve my Gallic 'H' Pattern Helmet and I am making my own Segmentata Armour and Brlt etc.

You'll appreciate why they said it, then.

 

[Joe Random]

South Shields, oh ****. I was brought up in the North East and have been back here for over 10 years and I still struggle with the Shields accent! I hear Segedunum is worth a visit. As you know there are Roman sites all the way to Carlisle. Perhaps when you have firmer plans start a thread. There are, I am sure, a few others who can give you tips and Francecsa who can scare you off.
Newcastle Sceptics in the pub is the 2nd Wednesday of every month!

Tickets had been bought months ago, so sorting things out now. Thread here , and thanks.

 

[catsmate]

I live just down the road on Teesside. It's a small world.

(Unconnected but, I am a Mod on the Cosmoquest Forum (former Bad Astronomy) and by coincidence two of the other mods on this world wide forum live within 40 miles if me.)

So the perfect place for Tsar Bomb II then?

 

[Lothian]

I live just down the road on Teesside.

Commiserations.

 

[The Don]

Commiserations.

Better a Smoggie than a Makkem or Geordie IMO.....

 

[Francesca R]

The change from decreasing inequality during the Keynesian era to increasing post-Keynes is actually very clear.

You are correct.

However according to Eurostat it is at the same level (the post tax GINI index anyway) in the rest of the EU as in the UK on average, with Germany, France a bit lower, Scandinavia lower still, and southern Europe higher, and the Baltics higher still.

On that measure at least the UK does not stick out as particularly unequal in Europe.

(It's possible that that link buggers up after some timeout, in which case search "Eurostat GINI index")

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You are correct.

However according to Eurostat it is at the same level (the post tax GINI index anyway) in the rest of the EU as in the UK on average, with Germany, France a bit lower, Scandinavia lower still, and southern Europe higher, and the Baltics higher still.

On that measure at least the UK does not stick out as particularly unequal in Europe.

(It's possible that that link buggers up after some timeout, in which case search "Eurostat GINI index")

Haven't seen the data for a couple of years but if I remember rightly the UK had quite a nasty combination of high inequality and low social mobility relative to most of Europe.

One thing to be poor, another to be born into it with little hope of getting out of it for you or your kids.

I think this also plays to the Corbyn/Labour question elsewhere. Labour used to be the voice of the working man and Tory the Establishment. That line is not so clear anymore. Labour seem just as remote and 'elite' as the Tories to a lot of people these days.

It's not a great surprise that 'common sense' policies from the likes of UKIP resonate. Of course 'common sense' means simple to the point of stupid but that doesn't really matter so much.