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New Disclosures on Benghazi - Part II

Wrong again! fantastic. To summarize, you don't... no one at all quibbles with the substance of Hicks' testimony that the SF were ordered not to get on the plane.

The substance of Hicks' testimony is that they were ordered to "stand down". And they weren't.

Hicks lied about the "stand down" order.

And it wasn't Hicks that lead them to that conclusion

"REP. ROBY: At the May 8 hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Gregory Hicks, who was the Deputy Chief of Missions at the Embassy in Tripoli that you have referred to, on the day of Benghazi attacks, he was asked by a Member, and I quote, "You believed help was needed in Benghazi, and there was a SOF unit, Special Operations unit, ordered to stand down, correct?" And Mr. Hicks replies "yes" to this question.

Do you agree that you and your team were ordered to, quote, 'stand down'?

GIBSON: Madam Chairman, I was not ordered to stand down."

EDIT:
(after he got promoted of course.... of course)

I see that your defense-at-all-costs of the lying Hicks because he can be used to support your anti-Clinton crusade extends to now accusing Gibson of being bribed to contradict Hicks.
 
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The substance of Hicks' testimony is that they were ordered to "stand down". And they weren't.

Hicks lied about the "stand down" order.



"REP. ROBY: At the May 8 hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Gregory Hicks, who was the Deputy Chief of Missions at the Embassy in Tripoli that you have referred to, on the day of Benghazi attacks, he was asked by a Member, and I quote, "You believed help was needed in Benghazi, and there was a SOF unit, Special Operations unit, ordered to stand down, correct?" And Mr. Hicks replies "yes" to this question.

Do you agree that you and your team were ordered to, quote, 'stand down'?

GIBSON: Madam Chairman, I was not ordered to stand down."

EDIT:

I see that your defense-at-all-costs of the lying Hicks because he can be used to support your anti-Clinton crusade extends to now accusing Gibson of being bribed to contradict Hicks.

Lets summarize again.

Greg Hicks said you were ordered not to go: TRUE
Greg said you were ordered not to get on the plane: TRUE.

I think it is marvelous though that you get such mileage out of pedantic quibbling about whether to a layman like Greg Hicks who was in the heat of the action there was a difference between "not going" and "standing down."

At the end of the day, they didn't get on the plane.

But you are in the running for "Pro Pedant of the Year" :thumbsup:
 
I think it is marvelous though that you get such mileage out of pedantic quibbling about whether to a layman like Greg Hicks who was in the heat of the action there was a difference between "not going" and "standing down."

Hicks and the Republicans didn't make a big deal out of Gibson's team "not going" because they thought the team was being assigned to provide security for the Tripoli embassy due to the possibility of follow-on attacks in Tripoli or a potential for attempts at hostage taking and to provide medical and security assistance to the Americans returning from Benghazi instead of going to Benghazi themselves because Rear Admiral Losey wanted to divide the few military personnel that were available in Libya between Tripoli and Benghazi rather than concentrate them all in one location.

They made a big deal out of Gibson's team "not going" because they wanted everyone to believe the lie that the team was ordered to stand down, to (in the words of Gibson) "cease all operations, cease all activities". That's why they kept repeating the term "stand down" rather than saying something like "ordered to defend Embassy Tripoli" instead.

At the end of the day, they didn't get on the plane.

At the end of the day, Hicks lied about a "stand down" order.
 
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Hicks and the Republicans didn't make a big deal out of Gibson's team "not going" because they thought the team was being assigned to provide security for the Tripoli embassy due to the possibility of follow-on attacks in Tripoli or a potential for attempts at hostage taking and to provide medical and security assistance to the Americans returning from Benghazi instead of going to Benghazi themselves because Rear Admiral Losey wanted to divide the few military personnel that were available in Libya between Tripoli and Benghazi rather than concentrate them all in one location.

They made a big deal out of Gibson's team "not going" because they wanted everyone to believe the lie that the team was ordered to stand down, to (in the words of Gibson) "cease all operations, cease all activities". That's why they kept repeating the term "stand down" rather than saying something like "ordered to defend Embassy Tripoli" instead.



At the end of the day, Hicks lied about a "stand down" order.

Curious that your cherry picking style allows you to ignore facts:

Greg Hicks said you were ordered not to go: TRUE
Greg said you were ordered not to get on the plane: TRUE.
 
Curious that your cherry picking style allows you to ignore facts:

Greg Hicks said you were ordered not to go: TRUE
Greg said you were ordered not to get on the plane: TRUE.

You claim A'isha is cherry picking, then post these rotten cherries?!? Bwahahahaha!
 
Says the guy ignoring all the quoted testimony where Hicks falsely claimed that there was a stand down order.

Says the gal ignoring:

Greg Hicks said you were ordered not to go: TRUE
Greg said you were ordered not to get on the plane: TRUE.

Greg Hicks thought that being ordered not to get on the plane was a "stand down" order. Gibson disagreed based on pedantic parsing of the term.

Say, it sounds like they are both right.

From a layman's standpoint, an order not to go is a "stand down" order.
From a military jargon perspective it "'Stand down' implies that we cease all operations, cease all activities"

Sounds like they were BOTH right!:thumbsup:

Consensus, just like the consensus that Gibson was ordered not get on the plane.
 
Does anyone here buy 16.5's so-tortured-it-should-be-illegal-under-the-Geneva-conventions logic? [EDIT: Or his laughable "laymen understand 'stand down' differently" thing?]

Anyone at all?
 
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Does anyone here buy 16.5's so-tortured-it-should-be-illegal-under-the-Geneva-conventions logic?

Anyone at all?

I do!

Consensus!

Say, does anyone else notice that A'isha is ducking these facts:

Greg Hicks said you were ordered not to go: TRUE Greg said you were ordered not to get on the plane: TRUE.
like Daffy Duck on the opening of Hunting Season?
 
Does anyone here buy 16.5's so-tortured-it-should-be-illegal-under-the-Geneva-conventions logic? [EDIT: Or his laughable "laymen understand 'stand down' differently" thing?]

Anyone at all?

*ahem*

'Lolz'

Avid readers should know that protip is that all security forces should have abandoned their posts to immediately go to BENGHAZI!!! to fight the evil terrorists.

In other words, no.

The people in question may have been ordered to NOT get on the plane, but they were not told to stand down. They had jobs to do where they were, as much as they wanted to rush off to a horrible situation.
 
*ahem*

'Lolz'

Avid readers should know that protip is that all security forces should have abandoned their posts to immediately go to BENGHAZI!!! to fight the evil terrorists.

In other words, no.

The people in question may have been ordered to NOT get on the plane, but they were not told to stand down. They had jobs to do where they were, as much as they wanted to rush off to a horrible situation.

Agreed, with the addition that rushing off to that horrible situation would not have changed anything, as they still would not have been able to get there in time.
 
'It ain't the crime, it's the coverup', and yet they haven't even shown a coverup or what was supposed to be covered up...

This was a waste of government money for partizan activities.

Unless it's one of the "personal" deleted emails.

"Hey, Huma, what's with Stevens wanting all this security? You tell that ******* there's an election going on and if he doesn't shut up his security will consist of him, his dick and his hand."
"Got it, boss".

That wouldn't be criminal, but it would probably finish her politically.
 
Unless it's one of the "personal" deleted emails.

"Hey, Huma, what's with Stevens wanting all this security? You tell that ******* there's an election going on and if he doesn't shut up his security will consist of him, his dick and his hand."
"Got it, boss".

That wouldn't be criminal, but it would probably finish her politically.

Your fantasies are getting predictable.
 
....Do any of you seriously, actually believe it helped determine the outcome of the Presidential election? Give me a break.

Ah ...I see now why this has become such a "thing" with some. Had Obama and Hillary done everything right they would have lost the election!
 
Does anyone here buy 16.5's so-tortured-it-should-be-illegal-under-the-Geneva-conventions logic? [EDIT: Or his laughable "laymen understand 'stand down' differently" thing?]

Anyone at all?

I'm a buyer. The stand down confusion was created by an early news report by Fox News (of course no other media source had time to do this kind of reporting; they were too busy covering for the Obama administration and smearing Romney for an ill-advised tweet) which referred to an order to wait as an order to stand down. To the reporter, and to the layman (including me), those two things mean roughly the same thing. Apparently, in the military "stand down" has a more precise and categorical meaning, i.e. terminate all operations and go back to doing whatever you were doing before (presumably up to and including jerking off).

In the more fevered swamps of the right wing blogosphere the reference to a stand down order took on a life of its own and was deemed to be indicative of cowardice at the highest echelons of the power structure. I actually think there were two orders to delay which have since been conflated with a the mythical stand down order. The first was when the CIA people at the Annex in Benghazi were gearing up to head over to the compound a mile away. Those people were told not to go - yet - by the local commander. After waiting some number of minutes, they decided to defy orders and go anyway. That is the delay I was familiar with. It appears, from reading through recent posts, that it has been claimed there was a separate order to wait given to a special forces group gearing up to go to Benghazi from Tripoli. That too appears to be a truthful claim. In military lingo, it was not a stand down order, but I think it is going way too far to call Hicks a liar. The phrase stand down order, with all of its layman connotations, was in the air, and it was not unreasonable to assent to its use implicitly in a question and answer session.

The truth is there was no official stand down order, but of course it would have been absolutely absurd to issue one under such circumstances. It is a red herring to argue against there being one. Even the most cowardly general in the world wouldn't issue a stand down order. He would just issue a "wait" order instead, and make sure that everybody waited long enough for any hostilities to end before sending his men into battle.

Personally, I don't blame the "wait" orders, such as they were, on anybody in the Obama administration, nor even on the commanders who gave those orders. They were judgment calls. We can second guess them now, but I think they were reasonable under the circumstances.

I think a more important issue, however, is one raised by the latest report. It seems that many hours after the President told Panetta to use all means possible to rescue Americans being attacked in Benghazi, no forces had actually moved. That is a remarkable span of inactivity when the President has ordered action. I think there was some bad planning at the highest levels, and also some bad implementation. When you are under time constraints, you want as many things happening in parallel as possible. I think that the decision making was instead happening in series. For example, if you think there's a 25% chance of using special forces troops training in Croatia, you start them mobilizing right away, and then maybe 2 hours later, when you have more information, make the decision as to whether or not they should actually "go." Sure, 75% of the time you've wasted their time and resources mobilizing them to do nothing, but 25% of the time, you've saved yourself 2 hours. It appears to me that none of this operational contingency planning happened, even in the midst of a crisis.
 

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