Corbyn's days (very) numbered?

[3point14]

If all the Labour MPs wanted to be carbon copies of Conservative MPs, why did they join the Labour Party?

It seems that actual, left-wing politics scare the crap out of them.

 

[Francesca R]

It's a bit chicken/egg. It's the leader's fault for not leading / No it's the followers fault for not following.

I think the result of that is usually that the leader loses. Doesn't always fix stuff.

I was surprised how soon and how loudly regicide became an issue for Labour after the result. Perhaps it is the least bad time to have that happen. But it is enabling Cameron to have a reasonably OK political expiry instead of being totally skewered which was probably what should have happened.

 

[angrysoba]

I just find it quite shameful that the Labour party seem to show more passion for infighting than they do for the issues. I barely remember seeing more than one or two Labour faces during the campaign (though in fairness they are quite forgettable) but within minutes of the vote going the wrong way they were on TV to say how bad the campaign had been.

If they have no respect for Corbyn and don't respect his leadership then fine but that's not an excuse for their own half-hearted showing during the Referendum. They're utterly clueless and irrelevant now.

I think the one or two Labour Party MPs who were prominent were on the other side, not to mention a certain ex-Labour MP.

I would perhaps make an exception for Angela Eagle who is perhaps unfortunately burdened by a rather mousy demeanour but seemed to do her best. There was generally no fire in the bellies of any of the Labour Party. Only a few Tories such as Ruth Davidson managed to look like they cared.

I agree that any of them could have campaigned in their own right regardless of the leader that they had little right in not realizing was ineffectual until now.

 

[angrysoba]

I was surprised how soon and how loudly regicide became an issue for Labour after the result. Perhaps it is the least bad time to have that happen. But it is enabling Cameron to have a reasonably OK political expiry instead of being totally skewered which was probably what should have happened.

Indeed, first Question Time back and he was making hay with Corbyn's woes. When Corbyn said he looked forward to another few months of debating with Cameron, it was clear he gave Cameron an open goal who also said he hoped for an opportunity for at least a few weeks. Corbyn's simper suggested he didn't even realize Cameron was saying that Jezza will probably be gone before him.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If all the Labour MPs wanted to be carbon copies of Conservative MPs, why did they join the Labour Party?

It seems that actual, left-wing politics scare the crap out of them.

I guess we are seeing the guys who joined 'New Labour' work their way through. The guys who joined when Labour looked like the winning team. The equivalent of modern Chelsea or Man City fans rather than the guys who've grown up with them being rubbish and followed through thick and thin.

They seem to have attracted a bunch of political featherweights though. I can't imagine someone like John Reid or Prescott suffering this nonsense. I'm glad I don't have to choose between only Labour and Tory because right now my vote would have to go to the Tories.

I think England needs a new party. The SNP really should think about sticking a few candidates up in English consitituencies next time around.

 

[GlennB]

It's a bit chicken/egg. It's the leader's fault for not leading / No it's the followers fault for not following.

I think the result of that is usually that the leader loses. Doesn't always fix stuff.

I was surprised how soon and how loudly regicide became an issue for Labour after the result. Perhaps it is the least bad time to have that happen. But it is enabling Cameron to have a reasonably OK political expiry instead of being totally skewered which was probably what should have happened.

Careful now ...

 

[Francesca R]

No I'm serious (erm) as I said two pages back. Jeremy Corbyn was a child Tory planted as a sleeper cell in the Labour movement more than fifty years ago with the objective of being quite far left nabbing an Islington seat and holding onto it for ages building boatloads of credibility, waiting several decades for the moment to get elected leader in a way that could not be undone by Labour, and then activating and proceeding to annihilate the party from the inside.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think the one or two Labour Party MPs who were prominent were on the other side, not to mention a certain ex-Labour MP.

I would perhaps make an exception for Angela Eagle who is perhaps unfortunately burdened by a rather mousy demeanour but seemed to do her best. There was generally no fire in the bellies of any of the Labour Party. Only a few Tories such as Ruth Davidson managed to look like they cared.

I agree that any of them could have campaigned in their own right regardless of the leader that they had little right in not realizing was ineffectual until now.

The one time I saw Eagle she was sandwiched between Nicola and Amber Rudd and they both outclassed her by a mile. I like Ruth Davidson as much as I can like any Tory, she'd be an excellent representative if she wasn't one of them. I actually think she'd be a good UK leader but the Englandshire Tories would never go for that.

 

[3point14]

I guess we are seeing the guys who joined 'New Labour' work their way through. The guys who joined when Labour looked like the winning team. The equivalent of modern Chelsea or Man City fans rather than the guys who've grown up with them being rubbish and followed through thick and thin.

This was my thought. Not a one of them with any moral conviction at all. I'd rather vote for a losing Labour Party than for a winning "Labour Party" that's only differentiated from the Tories after forensic examination.

Where's the party promising to raise taxes. That's where my vote's going.

They seem to have attracted a bunch of political featherweights though. I can't imagine someone like John Reid or Prescott suffering this nonsense. I'm glad I don't have to choose between only Labour and Tory because right now my vote would have to go to the Tories.

I'd rather vote for the MRLP. they've always been ahead of the times.

I think England needs a new party. The SNP really should think about sticking a few candidates up in English consitituencies next time around.

Some sort to 'New, New Labour'*, a proper left wing party, possibly with some sort of agreement with the SNP not to field candidates north of the border. Scotland buggering off to be Scotland would scare me a lot less if it wasn't for the prospect of an eternal Tory government setting out the course and enthusiastically advertising the race to the bottom they do so seem to love.


*That's the problem with new political parties, naming them is such a minefield. Every obvious name seems to have been used by some set of extremist nutjobs at some point in the past.

 

[Tolls]

I agree that any of them could have campaigned in their own right regardless of the leader that they had little right in not realizing was ineffectual until now.

Corbyn's job, as leader of the Labour party and an alledged Remainer, was to actually, you know, lead.

From what I can tell those MPs did campaign, in their constituencies, which is where you would expect them to be.

It's the bloody leaders job (and his press people) to do heavy lifting, which was clearly too much effort for JC. Of course, being clueless when it comes to the media didn't help.

 

[angrysoba]

Corbyn's job, as leader of the Labour party and an alledged Remainer, was to actually, you know, lead.

From what I can tell those MPs did campaign, in their constituencies, which is where you would expect them to be.

It's the bloody leaders job (and his press people) to do heavy lifting, which was clearly too much effort for JC. Of course, being clueless when it comes to the media didn't help.

In fact, we know that many Labour Party MPs did campaign even if they didn't get the media coverage.

And certainly Corbyn was rubbish.

 

[ceptimus]

Corbyn was unwilling to share a Remain platform with the Tories - because look what sharing a platform with the Tories did for Labour in the IndyRef.

Corbyn made lots of speeches in favour of remain and travelled all over the country supporting it. It's not his fault that the media chose not to cover it.

In any case, Corbyn's "Overall I support EU membership, despite the EU's many problems", stance probably chimed with more voters than if he had pretended to be a complete EU fan. If he had gushed in favour of Remain that probably would have attracted more media coverage - but only to portray him as a hypocrite and endlessly replay his previous eurosceptical statements.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Corbyn's job, as leader of the Labour party and an alledged Remainer, was to actually, you know, lead.

From what I can tell those MPs did campaign, in their constituencies, which is where you would expect them to be.

It's the bloody leaders job (and his press people) to do heavy lifting, which was clearly too much effort for JC. Of course, being clueless when it comes to the media didn't help.

Not sure I agree.

Cameron didn't exactly do a bang up job on this in terms of 'leading his party' but we got plenty of vigourous and high profile debate between both sides of the Tory party without DC having to do all the work himself.

Corbyn was being a wet blanket but a real Labour leader in the making would have stepped up to the plate and took control of the situation. You cannot just meekly campaign in your own constituency when the debate is being fought on TV and the media and Labour voters don't actually hear a strong and passionate pro-Remain voice from their side.

So it's 1/10 for Corbyn on his report card, but the rest aren't going to get more than 2/10 either. And they lose serious goodwill from me for waiting till after the final whistle and then starting to fight.

 

[angrysoba]

Corbyn was unwilling to share a Remain platform with the Tories - because look what sharing a platform with the Tories did for Labour in the IndyRef.

Corbyn made lots of speeches in favour of remain and travelled all over the country supporting it. It's not his fault that the media chose not to cover it.

In any case, Corbyn's "Overall I support EU membership, despite the EU's many problems", stance probably chimed with more voters than if he had pretended to be a complete EU fan. If he had gushed in favour of LeaveRemain (?) that probably would have attracted more media coverage - but only to portray him as a hypocrite and endlessly replay his previous eurosceptical statements.

FTFY?

 

[Francesca R]

Some sort to 'New, New Labour'*, a proper left wing party

Let's set aside for a moment whether Blair was centre left or hard hard right. After Blair, Labour moved a bit to the left (of where it was) under Brown. It lost to a coalition. After Brown it moved a bit more left under Miliband. It lost to a Tory majority. After Miliband it moved more left under Corbyn. It's struggling even more.

Perhaps time to let go of the idea that it just needs to be a "proper left party"

 

[Garrison]

I just find it quite shameful that the Labour party seem to show more passion for infighting than they do for the issues. I barely remember seeing more than one or two Labour faces during the campaign (though in fairness they are quite forgettable) but within minutes of the vote going the wrong way they were on TV to say how bad the campaign had been.

If they have no respect for Corbyn and don't respect his leadership then fine but that's not an excuse for their own half-hearted showing during the Referendum. They're utterly clueless and irrelevant now.

Actually it seems it may have been the other way round. According to some leaked documents Corbyn vetoed or watered down various Remain initiatives and when he did speak out he left people utterly confused as to which side Labour was.

 

[Tolls]

Corbyn made lots of speeches in favour of remain and travelled all over the country supporting it. It's not his fault that the media chose not to cover it.

Unless you live in the 19th century, modern media handling is a key part of running a party. It was his (and Milne's) responsibility to ensure that they got coverage.

Not sure I agree.

Cameron didn't exactly do a bang up job on this in terms of 'leading his party' but we got plenty of vigourous and high profile debate between both sides of the Tory party without DC having to do all the work himself.

If you think there wasn't a machine working in the background to get people air time...
The media doesn't just magically pick on people.

Corbyn was being a wet blanket but a real Labour leader in the making would have stepped up to the plate and took control of the situation. You cannot just meekly campaign in your own constituency when the debate is being fought on TV and the media and Labour voters don't actually hear a strong and passionate pro-Remain voice from their side.

And again, that requires an actual media campaign, which is not done by a lone MP. Since Corbyn was avoiding sharing a platform with Dave then he should have ensured there was something that would push his pro-EU MPs forward. That's the way it works.

 

[MikeG]

Let's set aside for a moment whether Blair was centre left or hard hard right. After Blair, Labour moved a bit to the left (of where it was) under Brown. It lost to a coalition. After Brown it moved a bit more left under Miliband. It lost to a Tory majority. After Miliband it moved more left under Corbyn. It's struggling even more.

Perhaps time to let go of the idea that it just needs to be a "proper left party"

That's only a recent snapshot, too. The same pattern manifests itself all the way back into the 1960's.

 

[ceptimus]

FTFY?

Thanks. I've edited the post now.

 

[3point14]

Let's set aside for a moment whether Blair was centre left or hard hard right. After Blair, Labour moved a bit to the left (of where it was) under Brown. It lost to a coalition. After Brown it moved a bit more left under Miliband. It lost to a Tory majority. After Miliband it moved more left under Corbyn. It's struggling even more.

Perhaps time to let go of the idea that it just needs to be a "proper left party"

No, I don't think so. I don't think there's been a viable left wing option for some time. I'd like there to be. I think that the results of the Labour Party leadership elections being so out of synch with the wants of the Labour MPs indicates that there is an unfilled need out there.

I don't actually believe that the moving to the left is the cause of Labour's issues. I think the lack of any actual desire to move to the left from the career politicians is probably more influential - that kind of disconnect with the voting public is not going to gain any votes.

While I'd like a left wing option, I'd settle for a party that was distinguishable from the Tories. We have two parties of capital both vying for the same space.