The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[The Sparrow]

There's a world of a difference between a professional magician who spends his life devising an creating clever illusions, and a devout, poverty-stricken, poorly educated peasant girl, who spent her short life working and helping others. Can you see it?....

Would you be so willing to defend a similar case but with a different religion I wonder?

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/08/07/buddha-boy-goes-10-months-without-food-or-water-scientific-community-is-baffled/

 

[blue triangle]

Would you be so willing to defend a similar case but with a different religion I wonder?

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/08/07/buddha-boy-goes-10-months-without-food-or-water-scientific-community-is-baffled/

Yes!

I have a lot of respect for Buddhism and I think if I wasn't a Christian I would be very attracted to it. Thanks for the link. This boy really does seem to have the same ability as the Catholic mystics I read about (although I'm trusting the article writer of course). The Dalai Lama once visited a Catholic monastery in southern France, and, after speaking to monks who spent their lives in prayer in caves, said that either there was a hidden stream of communication between Catholicism and Buddhism or the Catholic monks and his own monks were reporting the same experiences.

 

[The Sparrow]

Yes!

I have a lot of respect for Buddhism and I think if I wasn't a Christian I would be very attracted to it. Thanks for the link. This boy really does seem to have the same ability as the Catholic mystics I read about (although I'm trusting the article writer of course). The Dalai Lama once visited a Catholic monastery in southern France, and, after speaking to monks who spent their lives in prayer in caves, said that either there was a hidden stream of communication between Catholicism and Buddhism or the Catholic monks and his own monks were reporting the same experiences.

Except that in doctrine Buddhism and Christianity are completely different.
Whitewashing it by cherry picking parts of practice out of it will not change that.

Buddhism does not subscribe to an Abrahamic god, nor too redemption from Christ. So, if buddha boy is genuine, your catholic mystics 'powers' have nothing to do with the abrahamic god, since this buddhist practitioner can supposedly do the same thing.

 

[Delvo]

However, a sin of this magnitude, to someone of such faith, would in their belief system have grave consequences.

When has that ever stopped a religionist from anything?

And sinning by lying about an alleged miracle isn't the only explanation anyway. Others include not knowing how to really test things properly, just being sloppy about it, and approaching the test with a probably-already-convinced mindset which makes one prone to being fooled.

We're talking about the same group of people who took a dying preacher's request to eat a certain kind of fish one more time, served him some other fish instead because the kind he asked for was too far away, saw that he was pleased and thought it was his favorite kind, didn't tell him what it really was, and then, when it was time to find miracles to attribute to him so they could make him a saint, declared that the fish from one species had been miraculously transformed into another species just for him to eat it. The whole idea of Catholics being duty-bound to subject Catholic myths to serious study is one of the most shamefully absurd pieces of blazingly absurd absurdity that could ever have been imagined.

To deny the truth of these accounts - and there are many - you and your fellow skeptics have to invent increasingly implausable alternative scenarios.

That humans can be tricked by tricksters, or lie, or fail to follow thorough procedures when they're needed, or be convinced enough before testing something to think they see what they're expecting even if it's not really there, are all quite well known and proven facts. Calling them "implausable scenarios" is simply not honest. (So much for the idea of religionists caring at all about the "consequences" of the sin of lying about this stuff.)

observing the situation and daily life of a bedridden mystic, weighing her, etc, is the correct way to determine whether or not she has taken any food.

And this was done every single second, in a location she had no opportunity to set up ahead of time, by people who weren't in on it with her? No. Not a chance. When that has been tried for real, guess what the results have really been.

It is therefore also reasonable to look into the matter further...

And that's been done...

... and to be ready to change one's worldview if the evidence warrants it.

And yet, when real testing procedures are applied, and this stuff just doesn't work, you don't change. You insist that the results from biased older tales without a hint of actual testing & reporting protocols applied are more reliable because treating the subject seriously makes God run away.

almost no evidence, no matter how extraordinary, would be enough

Scientists love seeing just the one first little speck of a hint of real evidence of something new & unexpected. They crave the sensation of having their old ideas challenged and being forced by the facts to come up with new ones. But that's nothing like the situation we have here. The amount of real evidence you have for this crap is zero.

 

[Humots]

<snip>

No, they simply observed the mystic and concluded that as far as they could tell that he or she hadn't taken any food or water.

I think they were present because they were well educated and honest and therefore more likely to detect any subterfuge.

<snip>

"Simply observed."

Was the mystic required to stay in a room with no possibility of hidden spaces containing concealed food?

Was the mystic watched every minute of the night and day? Even followed into the bathroom (presumably to wash)?

Were visitors searched to see if they were carrying concealed food? Like a bottle of some liquid nutrient that the mystic could take, drink and give back in just a few seconds while another visitor distracted a watcher?

Maybe someone comes in with a mouthful of something, and "kisses" the mystic?

Maybe someone brings in a wet paper towel to wipe the mystic's face, and it's soaked in milk, not water?

These examples are in no way far-fetched. Professional confidence men pull scams all the time.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. I am sure a professional magician could think of dozens more that are far simpler.

It has been established that people who are simply "well educated and honest" do not have the expertise necessary to detect subterfuge. That includes doctors and scientists.

Come to think of it, wouldn't inedia qualify for the million dollar prize if demonstrated under controlled conditions?

 

[Donn]

Come to think of it, wouldn't inedia qualify for the million dollar prize if demonstrated under controlled conditions?

AFAICR, these kinds of claims are unwelcome for the inevitable harm they'd bring to the deluded now tightly restricted from cheating.

 

[The Sparrow]

AFAICR, these kinds of claims are unwelcome for the inevitable harm they'd bring to the deluded now tightly restricted from cheating.

True, it's the perfect scam, you can never be tested. All you need claim is you were doing just fine when they shut down the test.
Even worse, you can claim a conspiracy that 'science' shut down the test because they were afraid of finding out and publicizing that you had special powers.

 

[Thor 2]

Yes!

I have a lot of respect for Buddhism and I think if I wasn't a Christian I would be very attracted to it. Thanks for the link. This boy really does seem to have the same ability as the Catholic mystics I read about (although I'm trusting the article writer of course). The Dalai Lama once visited a Catholic monastery in southern France, and, after speaking to monks who spent their lives in prayer in caves, said that either there was a hidden stream of communication between Catholicism and Buddhism or the Catholic monks and his own monks were reporting the same experiences.

Boy, you are so ready to believe aren't you. You read an article from a biased source and you immediately think, "yes right on, this Buddha boy looks like the real McCoy".

I happen to live in a small village in rural Thailand and the people are 100% Buddhist. They have a few other beliefs that don't have anything to do with Buddhism, and one is a belief in the god of natural phenomenon "Phaya Thaen", every year the different villages fire rockets in the air to remind this god to send down the rain for the rice growing season.

We had a rocket firing event in our village recently, and blow me down, the very next day it rained. How can you argue with that proof of a god's existence? I expect you will be over here on the next available flight to join the flock.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Boy, you are so ready to believe aren't you. You read an article from a biased source and you immediately think, "yes right on, this Buddha boy looks like the real McCoy".

I happen to live in a small village in rural Thailand and the people are 100% Buddhist. They have a few other beliefs that don't have anything to do with Buddhism, and one is a belief in the god of natural phenomenon "Phaya Thaen", every year the different villages fire rockets in the air to remind this god to send down the rain for the rice growing season.

We had a rocket firing event in our village recently, and blow me down, the very next day it rained. How can you argue with that proof of a god's existence? I expect you will be over here on the next available flight to join the flock.

Nah, Not enough crucifiction.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Except that in doctrine Buddhism and Christianity are completely different.
Whitewashing it by cherry picking parts of practice out of it will not change that.

Buddhism does not subscribe to an Abrahamic god, nor too redemption from Christ. So, if buddha boy is genuine, your catholic mystics 'powers' have nothing to do with the abrahamic god, since this buddhist practitioner can supposedly do the same thing.

We all live in the same universe. Same physical laws, same supernatural laws, and same God. So what if the rituals are different.

I attended a ritual where 13 of us danced in the hot sun all day and slept in the dance area at night. Friday noon to Sunday noon. No food or water. On the Sunday I felt great. The opportunity to cheat was there for some. We were allowed to go to the toilet with a "chaperone". Some cheated by drinking the water from the cistern.

I researched the limits for going without food or water. 40 days is the optimal water only fast. (Jesus in the desert I think). The Irish prisoners lasted about 76 days maximum. Water is 3-5 days depending on conditions, but 8 days is doable. 11 days has been achieved, but no-one survives after 8 days due to organ damage.

One mystic had cameras on him, but he took a couple of toilet breaks.

While I believe that physical miracles are possible, I feel the ones that clearly break the laws of physics are rare. And I feel the ones with publicity are likely clever frauds.

The Tarot cards seem to work for me and some others. If they do, then the cards must be "manipulated" so that they fall in the desired order. Once one tries to test that, it will fail because God (or his agent) will simply let the normal shuffle randomly order the cards without any intervention. When this happens, as it does now and then, there is no thread to be seen in the layouts.

God will not be caught napping by some clever scientists. Otherwise, what purpose would this site have?

 

[Thor 2]

We all live in the same universe. Same physical laws, same supernatural laws, and same God. So what if the rituals are different.

I attended a ritual where 13 of us danced in the hot sun all day and slept in the dance area at night. Friday noon to Sunday noon. No food or water. On the Sunday I felt great. The opportunity to cheat was there for some. We were allowed to go to the toilet with a "chaperone". Some cheated by drinking the water from the cistern.

I researched the limits for going without food or water. 40 days is the optimal water only fast. (Jesus in the desert I think). The Irish prisoners lasted about 76 days maximum. Water is 3-5 days depending on conditions, but 8 days is doable. 11 days has been achieved, but no-one survives after 8 days due to organ damage.

One mystic had cameras on him, but he took a couple of toilet breaks.

While I believe that physical miracles are possible, I feel the ones that clearly break the laws of physics are rare. And I feel the ones with publicity are likely clever frauds.

The Tarot cards seem to work for me and some others. If they do, then the cards must be "manipulated" so that they fall in the desired order. Once one tries to test that, it will fail because God (or his agent) will simply let the normal shuffle randomly order the cards without any intervention. When this happens, as it does now and then, there is no thread to be seen in the layouts.

God will not be caught napping by some clever scientists. Otherwise, what purpose would this site have?

What is this stuff Part Skeptic? Your here masquerading as some sort of partial skeptic, and yet you have a belief in God and partake in rituals with mystics?

 

[The Sparrow]

We all live in the same universe. Same physical laws, same supernatural laws, and same God. So what if the rituals are different.
...

Nope sorry. Buddhism has no "God". Nor a Jesus that one must accept in order to go to heaven. Buddhism has nothing to do with the abrahamic god, nothing.

 

[PartSkeptic]

What is this stuff Part Skeptic? Your here masquerading as some sort of partial skeptic, and yet you have a belief in God and partake in rituals with mystics?

How does one investigate claims of mystical experiences without researching them? Namely, taking part in them, and asking questions of the participants. I kept an open mind. Which meant that I analytically assessed what was going on without a dismissive attitude.

Would I be right in thinking that many on this forum are arm-chair critics who get their viewpoints from authors who also have not had any "experience" in the practical world of the supernatural? Or have had bad experiences with clerics and followers in some religion or other?

I vacillate between being skeptical of my own experiences and my choice to believe, and accepting that I have the correct answers to the meaning of life and how it all works. I am not schizophrenic in this. To be truly skeptical and analytical one has to examine things from different viewpoints from time to time, rather than cling to dogma of any sort.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Nope sorry. Buddhism has no "God". Nor a Jesus that one must accept in order to go to heaven. Buddhism has nothing to do with the abrahamic god, nothing.

If there is a God, it is the same God for all, irrespective of the individual belief system. For atheists, for Buddhists and for all other religions.

 

[The Sparrow]

If there is a God, it is the same God for all, irrespective of the individual belief system. For atheists, for Buddhists and for all other religions.

That makes no sense. Buddhism, or more clearly Shinto, Hinduism, for example, have a clear set of beliefs that are in conflict with the Abrahamic religions. There is no 'God' in buddhism. Plain and simple.
There is no common same god that all disparate religions agree on. You can manufacture a salad bar god that somehow you think you can make fit into all those religions, but it is simply not the case.

If you accept buddha boys magical no food powers, and you accept christian mystic lady's magical no food powers, you are forced into creating a merged 'god' that neither believe in.

 

[Pup]

If there is a God, it is the same God for all, irrespective of the individual belief system. For atheists, for Buddhists and for all other religions.

I think that does more to show that individual religions tap into the same stimulus-reponse and they all use the tricks to claim it's evidence of their form of god or mysticism. Fasting produces similar sensations in all humans, so different religions have harnessed itt. Repetitive behavior and self denial, ditto, so of course monks will seem similar. There are dozens of such things. The whole idea of a sense of religious feeling is hardwired into our brains and is being investigated by scientists with MRIs.

I don't see how anyone could deny the sensations exist. The question is are they triggered by a real god outside the brain, and I don't think the way to investigate that is to trigger the sensations and conclude, yep, it felt real. The monk/shaman/etc. was right. Of course it felt real. That's part of the definition of the experience.

 

[Rincewind]

If there is a God, it is the same God for all, irrespective of the individual belief system. For atheists, for Buddhists and for all other religions.

If there is a god, presumably that could also mean there is more than one god?

 

[Delvo]

How does one investigate claims of mystical experiences without researching them? Namely, taking part in them, and asking questions of the participants.

That isn't research. It's participation.

• Real research avoids direct personal involvement for the researchers.
• Real researchers avoid having mind-altering experiences while they're supposed to be at work using their minds
• The fact that people have the kinds of experiences you're talking about under the kind of circumstances you describe is not in doubt or need of verification
• Subjecting yourself to it and getting the predictable results sheds no light on whether the cause is supernatural or physiological.

Would I be right in thinking that... in the practical world of the supernatural?

No, because there is no such thing. The practical and the supernatural do not overlap.

Or have had bad experiences with clerics and followers in some religion or other?

Please. That old religio-canard isn't even an attempt to make sense.

 

[AdamSK]

That isn't research. It's participation.

Do you, a priori, reject even the possibility that some phenomena can only be experienced through participation?

If we actually did live in a universe where some things operate consistently and some things only operate under certain observational conditions, I would absolutely expect that scientists might come to embrace the first category and reject the second as not behaving like the first.

 

[sackett]

By m by, Jonn Frum he go buggerimup pinis long wite pellah. Den com villidz gavman! E makin long 'eap CARGO long black pellah plenny too muss!

Well, it's a religion, innit?

Gotta wonder what the Frumists have on their stained glass windows, the ones letting in the effulgence of God? Blue triangle, any explanations? Or exclamations?