The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

Why do you assume (wrongly) that every theist, or part theist, is a Christian. I think most religions have a portion of the whole truth.

You are not only an atheist - you are an anti-Christian. Probably an anti-Islamist too. Are you anti-Judaic also?

Hmmm. Maybe I should come back as a theist who identifies as Jewish and see how much flack I get. I will not. Deceitful for a start, even if in the name of experimentation.

What is your response to the two infants murdered by the "power" of prayer?

Why are you dodging that?

And for the record, I am against all forms of primitive superstition regardless of what label you choose to put on them. All of it is unevidenced rubbish no different that believing in unicorns or santa or the tooth fairy.
 
Why do you assume (wrongly) that every theist, or part theist, is a Christian. I think most religions have a portion of the whole truth.

You are not only an atheist - you are an anti-Christian. Probably an anti-Islamist too. Are you anti-Judaic also?

Hmmm. Maybe I should come back as a theist who identifies as Jewish and see how much flack I get. I will not. Deceitful for a start, even if in the name of experimentation.

To me, one version of religious crackpottery is much like the other. All deluded.
 
The signs and wonders we receive are in accordance with our belief system. Our beliefs are a filter through which we experience the divine in a way we can comprehend.

Reverse that. Your beliefs filter reality to affirm this divine you so crave.

Of course those with no belief in the divine also experience it in accordance with their lack of belief - which means they are excluded from such experiences.

This is probably the most correct thing you've written.

You miss or ignore the obvious point here though: if no miracles are possible, nobody should experience the stigmata, Catholics included.

The supernatural, as you rightly point out, is impossible. Nothing stops the deluded from wounding themselves or play-acting.


Sorry but are you really you are putting forward an account from the nineteenth century as part of your "evidence"? :jaw-dropp

All the better to obscure the fraud under time's smudges.
 
Sorry but are you really you are putting forward an account from the nineteenth century as part of your "evidence"? :jaw-dropp
Not only did the doctors from the 1700's confirm stigmata, they endorsed it as a healthy practice since intentional bleeding was high medical practice thus proofing God knows everything. M'kay?
 
I find it disturbing that in this day and age people still are convinced that demons exist and can cause illness. Worse yet is treating the afflicted to expell the demon and if the patient dies it can be blamed on the demon. Win win for the religious.
 
I could not pass up this one in today’s newspaper.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2016/06/22/The-Big-Read-Weve-been-stupefied-by-magic

The young woman at the clinic had just received unexpected and upsetting news: she was six months pregnant with a human baby.

The doctor gently asked her if she had noticed any changes in her body that might have revealed the living thing growing inside her. Yes, she said, of course she'd noticed changes. She wasn't stupid. She'd just never considered the possibility that it might be a baby.

The doctor was confused. What had she thought it was? A magical frog, answered the young woman; probably put there by a witch paid off by someone who bore a grudge against her.


No doubt many on this forum would get a kick out of the rest of the article.

I was called a racist for commenting on the background of people in an anecdote.

I thought about mentioning race because people like you twist everything into something nasty.

Race was an important fact to the story. This man gave up the comforts of a regular life to minister to poor people, and help them. Many African blacks are both Christian and animists.

Freudian slip? Just a plain spelling mistake because I am getting old and my mental processes are failing. Unlike some, I am not in need of therapy - or an exorcism. :eek:


I have very little doubt that the woman in this article has ancestors that came to North-Eastern South Africa in the Bantu migration that started in the Congo. It is not her color that makes her prone to the beliefs she holds, it is part of her culture which is likely to be very tribal.

I was raised in Bulawayo Zimbabwe, in a colonial town. We did not have Apartheid. The educated people of European decent, and the educated people of Bantu decent would get very worried if one found a bag of “muti” (witch-doctors medicine also used in curses) buried in the garden.
 
I find it disturbing that in this day and age people still are convinced that demons exist
Not only as an abstract idea of them being out there somewhere, but that they personally can detect it and go around declaring some people they meet possessed and others demon-free.
 
Yep, Africa has a lot of past across its shoulders. This kind of superstition will take a long time to leave — if at a minimum education is prioritized.
Well, (s)he has told us that the number of people who believe in a particular superstition is an indicator of how likely it is to be correct... and we know that human policies can affect the number of believers... which means those same policies are making the beliefs themselves real or unreal... which means humans are the gods' gods!:jaw-dropp
 
It's always that way, because only those who are ready to accept the possibility of miracles will experience one. Those whose worldview precludes that possibility experience a miracle-free life. Anything else would violate their free will.

That's contrary to what the Bible describes. In it, Jesus heals a quadrapalegic right in front of the critics who claimed he was not God. Moses performed miracles in front of Pharoah, Elijah in front of the prophets of Baal. The book of Daniel describes God negating the effects of fire and of lions directly in front of the Babylonians who were convinced that the Jews were defying the gods and would die.

Heck, both Jesus and Peter are described in the New Testament as healing people who didn't know who they are until after they were healed.

So can you describe, please, the exact year in which miracles stopped working in the presence of nonbelief? Because this restriction is new.
 
That's contrary to what the Bible describes. In it, Jesus heals a quadrapalegic right in front of the critics who claimed he was not God. Moses performed miracles in front of Pharoah, Elijah in front of the prophets of Baal. The book of Daniel describes God negating the effects of fire and of lions directly in front of the Babylonians who were convinced that the Jews were defying the gods and would die.

Heck, both Jesus and Peter are described in the New Testament as healing people who didn't know who they are until after they were healed.

So can you describe, please, the exact year in which miracles stopped working in the presence of nonbelief? Because this restriction is new.

In addition to this, it also seems really counter-intuitive by a so-called all-knowing god to deny miracles to those who think it impossible. Should not such people instead be the very first to get a first-hand experience of these things, so that they will be converted and acknowledge that miracles do exist?

And then there are all the "miracles" that are confirmed to not be such a thing at all, but instead a misunderstanding, usually based on lack of knowledge.

Why would god do it like that? Is that not pretty much the stupidest way of performing miracles? If god did exist and only ever performed miracles that were completely indistinguishable from "miracles" that are confirmed to be fake, then you have to wonder what sort of followers god really wants. Does he really only want the gullible and credulous that are fooled by stage magic to follow him? And if so, why?

Besides, even if such a god existed, why should I worship it? If you want my worship, then you had better respect my intelligence enough to put up something that is undeniable, irrefutable evidence, studied end to end by those who knows just how fallible human brains are, and who have developed methods to mitigate these processes. A god that relies on me being gullible to worship it... I am better than that. Everyone in the world is better than that.

The sort of "god" that PartSkeptic is preaching for is no better than a demon. Heck, if it even existed, it probably -is- a demon. A demon that would be laughing over and over and over at how people would swallow the most embarrassingly obvious of lies and frauds.
 
One wonders by what devious arts a bedridden mystic, barely able to move, would be able to fool educated observers sitting round-the-clock at their bedside.


One might wonder that, but there is a large literature on creating illusion. Most methods take advantage of observers' cognitive biases and unwarranted assumptions. For instance, if you were thinking that the bedridden mystic would have had to get out of the bed and stealthily go fetch food and water himself, in order to practice such a deception, you've already half fooled yourself before any of their "devious arts" even come into play.

As a devout Catholic they would also be aware of the meaning and consequences of sin.


And? I know many devout Catholics. They are indeed aware of sin, they have an entire practical economy of it, accounted for to the last penitent Our Father. Accordingly, they sin all the time, just like everyone else.

A competent doctor would not[e] his observations and base his conclusions on that, not any materialistic beliefs he held.


If a doctor told me that I had all the observable symptoms of influenza, but since he had not personally observed me inhaling any influenza virus particles he's concluded that a supernatural force must be afflicting me with a curse that exactly mimics the effects of influenza instead, I would call that doctor incompetent.

In the case you describe, the doctors observed all the signs of a person adequately nourished and hydrated, but because they did not personally observe the person taking in food and water, concluded that a supernatural force must be miraculously (either) providing the sustenance or preventing the expected effects of their lack. That is no less incompetent.

The doctor and the priests have no purpose being present, at the bedside or in the story, except to set up for confirmation bias and add to the cognitive illusion that some sort of difficult decisive expert verification took place. What is a doctor's expertise going to be able to add to the understanding of what was going on? That the mystic didn't have a disease? (No one was saying he did.) That the mystic had not perished from hunger or thirst? (That's pretty obvious and doesn't require a doctor.) That the mystic wasn't obtaining food and water by deceptive means? Doctors have no training in determining that! Nor do priests.

From the many accounts I've read the inedia and stigmata were gifts conferred upon them, not decisions they made.


Then since the Bible clearly instructs us to pray "Give us this day our daily bread," can we safely conclude that the "gift" of inedia, if the mystic actually had it, must have been conferred by demons?

I think they sat at the bedsides of some mystics for weeks. Some of these mystics went without food and water for decades.


Here you fall for another common cognitive illusion (or else, you expect me to fall for it) that weak evidence weakly supporting one claim somehow strongly confirms a more extreme claim. How does some doctors and priests observing mystics for weeks in any way confirm the claim that they went without food or water for decades? It does not, of course, though it might seem to if you don't think about it. Even a whole audience of doctors and priests fails to understand how a magician levitates four feet, suggesting that just maybe the magician really does have miraculous powers, should we believe the magician's (or his publicist's) claim that he can levitate to the moon?
 
One might wonder that, but there is a large literature on creating illusion. Most methods take advantage of observers' cognitive biases and unwarranted assumptions. For instance, if you were thinking that the bedridden mystic would have had to get out of the bed and stealthily go fetch food and water himself, in order to practice such a deception, you've already half fooled yourself before any of their "devious arts" even come into play.

There's a world of a difference between a professional magician who spends his life devising an creating clever illusions, and a devout, poverty-stricken, poorly educated peasant girl, who spent her short life working and helping others. Can you see it?

And? I know many devout Catholics. They are indeed aware of sin, they have an entire practical economy of it, accounted for to the last penitent Our Father. Accordingly, they sin all the time, just like everyone else.
I never said any of the mystics didn't sin. However, a sin of this magnitude, to someone of such faith, would in their belief system have grave consequences.

To deny the truth of these accounts - and there are many - you and your fellow skeptics have to invent increasingly implausable alternative scenarios. You sound like a reflection of the God-of-the-gaps theists.

If a doctor told me that I had all the observable symptoms of influenza, but since he had not personally observed me inhaling any influenza virus particles he's concluded that a supernatural force must be afflicting me with a curse that exactly mimics the effects of influenza instead, I would call that doctor incompetent.

Observing you isn't the correct way of determining whether or not you have ingested the flu virus (unless the doctor's eyesight was particularly excellent). On the other hand, observing the situation and daily life of a bedridden mystic, weighing her, etc, is the correct way to determine whether or not she has taken any food.

In the case you describe, the doctors observed all the signs of a person adequately nourished and hydrated, but because they did not personally observe the person taking in food and water, concluded that a supernatural force must be miraculously (either) providing the sustenance or preventing the expected effects of their lack. That is no less incompetent.

No, they simply observed the mystic and concluded that as far as they could tell that he or she hadn't taken any food or water.

The doctor and the priests have no purpose being present, at the bedside or in the story, except to set up for confirmation bias and add to the cognitive illusion that some sort of difficult decisive expert verification took place. What is a doctor's expertise going to be able to add to the understanding of what was going on? That the mystic didn't have a disease? (No one was saying he did.) That the mystic had not perished from hunger or thirst? (That's pretty obvious and doesn't require a doctor.) That the mystic wasn't obtaining food and water by deceptive means? Doctors have no training in determining that! Nor do priests.
I think they were present because they were well educated and honest and therefore more likely to detect any subterfuge.

Then since the Bible clearly instructs us to pray "Give us this day our daily bread," can we safely conclude that the "gift" of inedia, if the mystic actually had it, must have been conferred by demons?

God can choose people for special purposes.


Here you fall for another common cognitive illusion (or else, you expect me to fall for it) that weak evidence weakly supporting one claim somehow strongly confirms a more extreme claim. How does some doctors and priests observing mystics for weeks in any way confirm the claim that they went without food or water for decades? It does not, of course, though it might seem to if you don't think about it. Even a whole audience of doctors and priests fails to understand how a magician levitates four feet, suggesting that just maybe the magician really does have miraculous powers, should we believe the magician's (or his publicist's) claim that he can levitate to the moon?

I think given the many careful accounts we have of phenomena such as inedia, the stigmata etc, there is a reasonable likelihood that something was directing the lives of these mystics that could defy natural laws, or that understood them better than we do - and that had the purpose of bolstering our faith. It is therefore also reasonable to look into the matter further and to be ready to change one's worldview if the evidence warrants it. You would likely argue that the evidence would have to be overwhelming, abundant and scientifically repeatable to be anywhere near convincing enough to change your mind, as per Carl Sagan's famous dictum. But I would say that the materialism that many hold as true is not and has never been warranted by the evidence of science, which it co-opts for its own purposes. The problem is not that the evidence for religious claims has to be more extraordinary, but that the skeptic and materialist has strayed so far from the truth that almost no evidence, no matter how extraordinary, would be enough to put him back on track. He would always want more.
 
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