Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Wiccans believe they have supernatural powers and although they claim to be 'white witches', one told me she knows how to put a 'hex' on someone.

You and NEW are discriminating against people on the grounds of their religious belief by saying witches have no magical powers at all, and therefore it cannot be a judicial truth that any of the Salem witches were really witches.

Maybe you dont know where you're at. This a skepric's forum founded by James Randi. James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF...now ISF)

He began his career as a magician named The Amazing Randi, and later chose to devote most of his time to investigating paranormal, occult, and supernatural claims, which he collectively calls "woo-woo".[6]
He wrote about the paranormal phenomena, skepticism, and the history of magic. He was a frequent guest on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson and was occasionally featured on the television program Penn & Teller: ********!
He later sponsored the 1 million dollar challenge which offered a prize of US$1,000,000 to eligible applicants who could demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural or occult power or event under test conditions agreed to by both parties. NO ONE ever collected the prize.

The point is your post is absurd. Witches or Wiccans don't have magical powers whether they believe they do or not. This is not religious discrimination, it is common sense which unfortunately is not that common.
 
If my memory serves me correctly, Barry Scheck had nothing to do with the glove in the OJ trial. It wasn't Scheck who said "if it doesn't fit you must acquit."
Add that to your list.

That was Johnny Cochran.
 
Pacal said:
As for any of the accused Witches judicially murdered at Salem. It is unlikely that any of them were Witches in the sense of being practitioners of a Witch religion. It is of course possible that some may have practised "folk magic". The trials themselves were farces even by late 17th century standards. The "evidence" against the witnesses a joke and the confessions basically worthless. I note that the authorities in Boston put a stop to the procedures and then ordered the remaining suspects freed. Further the entire episode became very quickly an embarrassing episode in memory. Those found guilty and executed were eventually exonerated, a bit late.

So it is very doubtful that any of the people executed in Salem was in fact a Witch at all.
Maybe you dont know where you're at. This a skepric's forum founded by James Randi. James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF...now ISF)

< ..... sinister deletia ..... >​
The point is your post is absurd. Witches or Wiccans don't have magical powers whether they believe they do or not. This is not religious discrimination, it is common sense which unfortunately is not that common.
This thread has been Vixen'ed....... again.

The point Vixen was making, way way way upthread was to claim "judicial truth", supposedly trumping truth-truth.

Particularly the judicial truth which wrongfully convicted AK and RS, they should been seen as superior to the truth-truths. As for the latter, there was precious little, therefor one has to default to the judicial truths.....

........................................ and:

Now we're talking about Wiccans, Witches and whether or not there is an truth to them!?

Yessirree Bob, we've been Vixen'ed. And the mods don't do anything about it.
 
This thread has been Vixen'ed....... again.

The point Vixen was making, way way way upthread was to claim "judicial truth", supposedly trumping truth-truth.

Particularly the judicial truth which wrongfully convicted AK and RS, they should been seen as superior to the truth-truths. As for the latter, there was precious little, therefor one has to default to the judicial truths.....

........................................ and:

Now we're talking about Wiccans, Witches and whether or not there is an truth to them!?

Yessirree Bob, we've been Vixen'ed. And the mods don't do anything about it.

I think the point and comoarison is still a good one. Vixen is desperately clinnging to "judicial truths" . This drespite that Knox and Sollecito were judicially exonerated. This despite the hundreds of overturned convictions. Or the absurdity of the Salem witch trials where 15 everyday people, mostly women were declared witches and hung did not make them witches. (Notice a pattern here)

False accusations and judicial truths in Italy in the 21st century have as much basis in reality as they did in Salem in the 17th century.
 
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We know what you believe.

What we do not know is what this "Bath Uni Historian in Italian law," believes. You have provided no link to anything that would cause anyone - me or independent lurker to this thread - to believe you.

Once again, this is your assertion. Assert away. What you've not done is pointed to anything authoritative.

On the other side, we "fervent PIP desperate to spin an 'innocent' verdict," have pointed YOU to Boninsegna's motivations report where a practising Italian judge has stated that it is a judicial fact that AK and RS were exonerated.

My bet is that if/when you do provide a link, it will say no such thing.

But you will continue as if you've proven something. Good for you.

I have given the source several times before: Professor Anna Celli (_sp?) Bull.

Boninsegna(_sp?) was referring to the police charge against Amanda regarding calunnia against themselves. IOW he had nothing to do with the Bruno-Marasca supreme court - a higher court than his - and therefore ipso facto he was using the term 'exonerated' in a colloquial sense.
 
It depends on what you mean by "Witch". If you mean practitioners of what is called "folk magic", then there were lots of "Witches" in Salem. It was from our point of view a very superstitious time and belief in hexes, sympathetic magic, curses existed in all sections of society. But I would hardly call such beliefs a religion or anything much like modern Wicca.

What the Judges of the Salem Witch trials had in mind when they accused people of being Witches was not so much the practice of "folk magic" but of them being members of a counter church - the church of Satan. Basically in this mythos Witches were worshippers of Satan, members of counter church seeking to destroy Christianity and along with this belief came the idea of a pact with the Devil, the Witches Sabbat and of course sex with the Devil. Witches were members of a vast Satanic underground that sought to undermine Christianity etc.

What was the evidence of such a Satanic cult? Well basically nothing. Through torture, coercion and leading questions the Witch hunters built up the myth of the Satanic Church and Diabolic religion. The Salem Witch Hunters were heirs to this tradition and the results were tragic.

The Witch, Satanic religion basically never existed and was concoction of the Witch hunters devised from their fevered minds. Modern Wicca is indeed quite modern, based on surviving practices of "folk magic" and a whitewashed version of the diabolic religion conjured up by the Witch hunters.

As for any of the accused Witches judicially murdered at Salem. It is unlikely that any of them were Witches in the sense of being practitioners of a Witch religion. It is of course possible that some may have practised "folk magic". The trials themselves were farces even by late 17th century standards. The "evidence" against the witnesses a joke and the confessions basically worthless. I note that the authorities in Boston put a stop to the procedures and then ordered the remaining suspects freed. Further the entire episode became very quickly an embarrassing episode in memory. Those found guilty and executed were eventually exonerated, a bit late.

So it is very doubtful that any of the people executed in Salem was in fact a Witch at all.


Pacal, thanks for your input. I did try to put C17 into context for NotEvenWrong but was told to desist from 'a historical diatribe'. The thing is, whether we scoff or not, Wiccans take their beliefs very seriously indeed; for them it is a lifestyle, and they have outdoor Wiccan weddings, etc. We are tolerant of civil partnerships, but to deny that Witches are/were serious people is equally intolerant - and they have always been there throughout history (John Dee, Madame Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, and even JJ Tolkein based his Lord of the Rings on Finnish folk myth [The Silmarillion]) Thus, it is not possible to say 'it is untrue any of the Salem defendants were witches'.

We have to remember that in 1620's-commencing early colonisation of the East Coast America, the first settlers were a mix of (a) venturists - company men, there to make money, (b) transported prisoners, (c) supporters of the executed Charles II - the losing Cavaliers against the puritan Roundheads (Oliver Cromwell himself banned all festivities, including Christmas) (d) other political dissenters, such as the Levellers (e) a huge military presence to fight off the French [the Redcoats] and, not least, (f) a very large body of Puritan Christians who came over over with the Mayflower. William Penn, an eminent Quaker (puritan) founded the famous Mason-Dixon line in Pennsylvannia, after which he was named (North and South Carolina being named after Charles, whose supporters were known as Carolinians - the latinised form of his name). In addition to all this, there were regular scuffles with the native Amerindians, who embarked on regular scalping raids on Georgetown (_?), one of the earliest towns, Virginia.

Thus the background of the Salem trials is within a landscape of great danger, Puritan priggishness and extreme austere values, kangaroo-style courts and a relatively barbaric community. Having had to leave their homeland in England under conditions of great persecution, yes, they were exceedingly paranoid about anyone not following their rigid codes of behaviour and faith.

To our C21 eyes, the Salem witch trials seems absurd and preposterous, and of course, the courts were not courts as we know them today.

So to ask, is it a judicial truth the witches tried at Salem were really witches, is not to ask a like-for-like analogy to the Kercher case.

For a start, no-one has accused Amanda of being a witch, apart from some barrister-style theatrical rhetoric from Patrick's counsel, Pascali (_sp?) who called Amanda a 'Lucifinera' she-devil. I doubt he meant it literally, but rather, as a metaphorical flourish.
 
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I think the point and comoarison is still a good one. Vixen is desperately clinnging to "judicial truths" . This drespite that Knox and Sollecito were judicially exonerated. This despite the hundreds of overturned convictions. Or the absurdity of the Salem witch trials where 15 everyday people, mostly women were declared witches and hung did not make them witches. (Notice a pattern here)

False accusations and judicial truths in Italy in the 21st century have as much basis in reality as they did in Salem in the 17th century.

What nonsense! I was watching a programme on tv last night about Albany Jail in New York (?). What a disgrace - it is more like a zoo. Put your own house in order in the US before knocking the relatively civilised Italians.
 
This thread has been Vixen'ed....... again.

The point Vixen was making, way way way upthread was to claim "judicial truth", supposedly trumping truth-truth.

Particularly the judicial truth which wrongfully convicted AK and RS, they should been seen as superior to the truth-truths. As for the latter, there was precious little, therefor one has to default to the judicial truths.....

........................................ and:

Now we're talking about Wiccans, Witches and whether or not there is an truth to them!?

Yessirree Bob, we've been Vixen'ed. And the mods don't do anything about it.


Instead of identifying the correct person who brought up the Salem witch trials you victimise me, instead.
 
Maybe you dont know where you're at. This a skepric's forum founded by James Randi. James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF...now ISF)

He began his career as a magician named The Amazing Randi, and later chose to devote most of his time to investigating paranormal, occult, and supernatural claims, which he collectively calls "woo-woo".[6]
He wrote about the paranormal phenomena, skepticism, and the history of magic. He was a frequent guest on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson and was occasionally featured on the television program Penn & Teller: ********!
He later sponsored the 1 million dollar challenge which offered a prize of US$1,000,000 to eligible applicants who could demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural or occult power or event under test conditions agreed to by both parties. NO ONE ever collected the prize.

The point is your post is absurd. Witches or Wiccans don't have magical powers whether they believe they do or not. This is not religious discrimination, it is common sense which unfortunately is not that common.

That's ridiculous. The fact no-one's got up on stage, doesn't mean it's bunkum. Have any Christians ever got up on stage to demonstrate the Resurrection, the Transfiguration or the Ascension to heaven? Does it make it any less true?
 
What nonsense! I was watching a programme on tv last night about Albany Jail in New York (?). What a disgrace - it is more like a zoo. Put your own house in order in the US before knocking the relatively civilised Italians.

Nonsense is your posts. Non-sequitur after non-sequitur.What does any of this has to do with the price of tea in China or the case we are discussing? The point which I clearly pointed out and what is the point of the comparison to the Salem witch trials is that just because a judge declares something to be true doesn't actually make it TRUE.

And your little diversion about WICCA is nonsensical. Also this little rant about getting our house in order first.

AND, we are discussing the farce of the Italians railroading Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher. We are NOT discussing the jail conditions in Albany, New York.

So either stay on topic or start another thread.
 
That's ridiculous. The fact no-one's got up on stage, doesn't mean it's bunkum. Have any Christians ever got up on stage to demonstrate the Resurrection, the Transfiguration or the Ascension to heaven? Does it make it any less true?

That's the DAMN point Vixen. Religion's supernatural claims are "woo woo" and just because they make them doesn't make them. Mohammed didn't fly to the moon on a winged chariot. Jesus wasn't the son of God, who walked on water, fed 5000 people with a couple of loaves of bread and a few fishes or that he died and rose from the dead.

Also, Santa doesn't deliver billions of gifts on a magical flying sleigh every Christmas,. I don't care what your parents told you.

And Witches do not have supernatural powers. I thought you said you were smart? Smart people don't believe this hokum.
 
Instead of identifying the correct person who brought up the Salem witch trials you victimise me, instead.

"Victimise"!? Wow! You made a claim that a judicial truth is somehow preferable to a real-truth, was presented with an example of the Slaem Witch trials to refute that claim, and then started to analyze Wicca and Witches and their philosophy.

Pointing that out is "victimizing" you!?

Yet another cringe-worthy moment.
 
That's the DAMN point Vixen. Religion's supernatural claims are "woo woo" and just because they make them doesn't make them. Mohammed didn't fly to the moon on a winged chariot. Jesus wasn't the son of God, who walked on water, fed 5000 people with a couple of loaves of bread and a few fishes or that he died and rose from the dead.

Also, Santa doesn't deliver billions of gifts on a magical flying sleigh every Christmas,. I don't care what your parents told you.

And Witches do not have supernatural powers. I thought you said you were smart? Smart people don't believe this hokum.


Of course I don't believe in hokum. The point is some people DO. Just because you are an atheist, doesn't mean anyone who is not is a charlatan.

As an example, there was a jazz/rock musician in the 70's, Graham Bond of the GBO, who threw himself in front of a train, after getting into mind battles with a pair of satanists.

To me it is obvious there are forces of good and evil in the world. I guess atheists believe in some kind of anarchy, where everything is due to chance and there is no such thing as an evil person.

Two of my Wicca friends seriously believe they have powers.
 
Vixen,
Try to stay on track please, and please answer the actual question presented to you. And please do so without accusing me and others of discrimination because we are asking you a question about the nature of your "judicial truths". Avoiding the question presented to you by presenting the history of 17th century Salem is off-topic and not at all what we are asking about. Most people would consider such behavior trolling and an attempt to derail. This is not what this forum is for.

Now, back to the question at hand. Originally, I presented this question to you:

Vixen,
The Court of Oyer and Terminer in Salem Town affirmed that Bridget Bishop, due to her "immoral" lifestyle and odd, black clothing and costumes, was a witch. This was a fact found by the court and she went to trial, was convicted, and was executed by hanging on June 10, 1692.

Was Bridget Bishop actually a witch, Vixen?

You responded thusly:

No. It illustrates how ignorant and bigoted the early New Englanders were.

This response makes sense, and I agree 100% with you. People can be biased and irrational. Group think can take over and people can become hysterical. Exhibit A would be the Salem Witch Trials. Of course these people weren't actually witches! Of course they didn't cast hexes on the townspeople and make them sick! Of course Satan didn't actually take control of them! Of course Amanda and Raffaele weren't involved in a Halloween pagan rite / murder ritual! (err wait, wrong case) Looks like the judicial truth was a clear and obvious mistake, and these people should not have been hanged for witchcraft. So, it does indeed look like judges and entire courts even can make mistakes and come to biased and incorrect conclusions.


So, I then point out to you this is at odds with your previous claim about judicial truths being infallible. You then go into the history of Wicca for some reason. And so I posed to you the following question to clarify your beliefs on the nature of judicial truths:

Answer this for me:

1) The official Court of Oyer and Terminer affirmed that that Bridget Bishop was a witch. This was a fact found by the official court. A judicial truth. She was later tried, convicted, and executed.

2) It follows from (1) above, that Bridget Bishop was indeed a witch. This is a fact settled, and it doesn't become open debate to all-comers. This fact remains, no matter how controversial. [True/False]

But now, you respond as follows:

Thus, it is not possible to say 'it is untrue any of the Salem defendants were witches'.

So now, it looks like you are waffling and saying it is possible that these poor men and women who were executed by hanging were ACTUALLY WITCHES!! Because you can't deal with the inherent contradiction in your beliefs regarding "judicial truths". You hate Amanda so much, and your belief she is evil is so strong, that the entire basis for your belief system is "Amanda is guilty". And since your belief hinges on the assumption that it is impossible the lower Italian courts were wrong about there being more than one perpetrator, your entire rationality is warped that you can't even acknowledge judges can be wrong sometimes. So now, in order to account for the obvious absurdity of the Salem Witch Trials (where 19 people were executed due to these "judicial truths"), you are now saying it is possible these poor murdered people were actually involved in witchcraft! Do you have no shame? In order for you to maintain your hatred for Amanda you are now virtually condoning the murders that occurred in the Salem Witch Trials.


Let me simplify this for you further Vixen:

It is [POSSIBLE/IMPOSSIBLE] for a "found fact" or a "judicial truth" to ever be WRONG.

Choose one Vixen. Possible OR impossible. The history of Wicca is irrelevant.
 
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You have been victimising me. NotEvenWrong is the person who keeps bringing up the Salem witch trials and keeps insisting Amanda was tried as a latterday witch. Yet you urge the mods to victimise me. If anyone else did this, they would be considered a bully.

Seriously, you need to read back through this sub-thread and reevaluate what you're saying. This is truly cringe worthy- you simply either willfully (trolling reasons) throw out these things or do it out of ignorance.

You think you're being victimized because people respond to your non sequitors - sigh.
 
Vixen,
Try to stay on track please, and please answer the actual question presented to you. And please do so without accusing me and others of discrimination because we are asking you a question about the nature of your "judicial truths". Avoiding the question presented to you by presenting the history of 17th century Salem is off-topic and not at all what we are asking about. Most people would consider such behavior trolling and an attempt to derail. This is not what this forum is for.

Now, back to the question at hand. Originally, I presented this question to you:



You responded thusly:



This response makes sense, and I agree 100% with you. People can be biased and irrational. Group think can take over and people can become hysterical. Exhibit A would be the Salem Witch Trials. Of course these people weren't actually witches! Of course they didn't cast hexes on the townspeople and make them sick! Of course Satan didn't actually take control of them! Of course Amanda and Raffaele weren't involved in a Halloween pagan rite / murder ritual! (err wait, wrong case) Looks like the judicial truth was a clear and obvious mistake, and these people should not have been hanged for witchcraft. So, it does indeed look like judges and entire courts even can make mistakes and come to biased and incorrect conclusions.


So, I then point out to you this is at odds with your previous claim about judicial truths being infallible. You then go into the history of Wicca for some reason. And so I posed to you the following question to clarify your beliefs on the nature of judicial truths:



But now, you respond as follows:



So now, it looks like you are waffling and saying it is possible that these poor men and women who were executed by hanging were ACTUALLY WITCHES!! Because you can't deal with the inherent contradiction in your beliefs regarding "judicial truths". You hate Amanda so much, and your belief she is evil is so strong, that the entire basis for your belief system is "Amanda is guilty". And since your belief hinges on the assumption that it is impossible the lower Italian courts were wrong about there being more than one perpetrator, your entire rationality is warped that you can't even acknowledge judges can be wrong sometimes. So now, in order to account for the obvious absurdity of the Salem Witch Trials (where 19 people were executed due to these "judicial truths"), you are now saying it is possible these poor murdered people were actually involved in witchcraft! Do you have no shame? In order for you to maintain your hatred for Amanda you are now virtually condoning the murders that occurred in the Salem Witch Trials.


Let me simplify this for you further Vixen:

It is [POSSIBLE/IMPOSSIBLE] for a "found fact" or a "judicial truth" to ever be WRONG.

Choose one Vixen. Possible OR impossible. The history of Wicca is irrelevant.

As I have said before, of course it is possible for facts found during a modern day trial to be wrong. However, the whole point of a trial is to bring facts to the table. If you miss your chance, the court won't care; it is cold and objective.

I am not really sure why you keep insisting a C17 kangaroo-style witch trial is of the same substance as a modern day trial in Italy.
 
Seriously, you need to read back through this sub-thread and reevaluate what you're saying. This is truly cringe worthy- you simply either willfully (trolling reasons) throw out these things or do it out of ignorance.

You think you're being victimized because people respond to your non sequitors - sigh.

She is trying desperately to account for her cognitive dissonance. Most people can acknowledge when they are wrong or something they have said doesn't make sense or is inconsistent. Vixen cannot. So the entire series of posts up to now has been repainted and distorted in her mind into her claiming that I am attacking her because I am explicitly pointing out her beliefs regarding "judicial truths" make absolutely no rational sense. So I get accused of discrimination against Wiccans and Vixen gets painted as the poor victim. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Never before have I encountered this depth of crazy. The positive in all this is anyone and everyone who is reading this can see that this is actually how the pro-guilt community thinks.
 
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