Merged Now What?

[gypsyjackson]

Yep, existing racists simply emboldened by the Referendum result. Since it went "their" way, they think it's OK to openly espouse their hatred.

BBC News: Anti-Polish cards in Huntingdon after EU referendum

I lived briefly in Huntingdon, and my brother lived there for four years, and this doesn't surprise me. There are a lot of Polish and Lithuanian agricultural workers there, to the point where there were a couple of Polish shops on the high street and Tesco and Sainsbury stocked a load of Polish products. Without wanting to come off as Faragesque, I did once (only once) go for a walk through the town and didn't hear any non-eastern European voices!

However, apart from the Polish shops and a hairdresser (which are just sensible businesses utilising a market), I don't recall any Poles working in the retail sector there; despite this in the pubs you'd hear the occasional 'dey turk er jerbs' type of chat, even though the jobs in question weren't ones that Brits have historically been inclined to take. There was also a large English Defence League presence at one time. So not surprised.

 

[asydhouse]

It only takes a small number of emboldened racists to make any high street a nasty minefield for anyone who looks a little different from the imaginary norm that meets with their approval.

And fascists and racists all over Europe, never mind just Britain, are heartened by this retrograde "decision" swung by a few ignorant and flippant ****wits.

It's embarrassing that Britain has gone from being an exemplar of unity in diversity to becoming the enabler of regression and bigotry.

You can tell yourself this as often as you like, but one day you should read the actual facts, and one day you should realise that it is extremely unlikely that 52% of the British public are racist, ignorant, flippant, ****wits. It it is beyond ridiculous to cast anyone who voted Leave as an enabler of bigotry and regression. In fact, if you want to find exemplars of stupid generalisations about 'people-not-like-me', go look in the mirror.

You didn't actually read what I wrote?

Or your habit is to spin others' comments in order to sound reasonable even though you are spouting irrelevant nonsense? Par for Leavers.

The fact is that this result has enabled racists and fascists right across Europe, and on our own streets an immediate increase in racist behaviour.

Look in your own cracked mirror, liar.

 

[asydhouse]

Indeed it is/ was. But levels of population increase are also a legitimate concern even for the non-racist/ xenophobes. Is anyone really suggesting that immigration shouldn't have been an issue for consideration during the campaign?

I hope everyone who comments on this subject has read Ashcroft's in depth survey post-referendum which I linked to above. The primary motivator for those who voted Leave wasn't immigration, it was the democratic deficit.

Which is also a myth. We have MEPs, our own elected heads of government forming the body that appoints the other body. Three bodies, all elected or appointed by our elected leaders.

The unelected Lords is the only undemocratic aspect of our governments.

 

[Francesca R]

[ . . . ] things such as not paying someone else's debts is a default [ . . . ]

I don't think that will be tried again. Looks too much like repudiation of one's debt. If you're convinced it isn't and that nobody Scotland wants on-side (IE bond investors) would think it was either then you should hope the SNP pulls it out again.

The agreement and legislation that established the rights of the Scottish Parliament. Westminster can't tell it what to do. So if Westminster can enact their legislation without the SP everything is fine. If not then they have to ask nicely and hope for the best.

And one thing the Scottish Parliament does not have the right to do is bind the UK parliament to Scottish independence against its will simply by calling a referendum.

Disagree?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Which is also a myth. We have MEPs, our own elected heads of government forming the body that appoints the other body. Three bodies, all elected or appointed by our elected leaders.

The unelected Lords is the only undemocratic aspect of our governments.

The democratic deficit was incredibly important. We don't want unelected Germans, people who were not voted for in a General Election or 'The Establishment' making our decisions.

Not for me. I'm with the Queen, Farage and Boris.

 

[catsmate]

In general brexit news.

1. Contrary to some claims sterling has not recovered but rather fallen further in this morning's trading.
2. Barclays, RBS and Easyjet shares have slumped, in fact trading in Barclays has been suspended after they fell >10%.
3. Osborne's attempt to reassure business doesn't appear to be working.
4. The 'gilt yield' (return on UK government bonds) has fallen to its lowest level ever. Yeild from 10 year beyond has fallen below 1% for the first time.
5. The Labour shadow cabinet didn't take kindly to the dismissal of Benn and the revelations about Corbyn's lack of Remain support, eleven others resigned.
6. Speculation about a Scottish attempt to block the UK's departure from the EU gain pace. [BBC]
7. As does speculation about a parliamentary attempt to block brexit. [The Guardian]. Interestingly those involved now include Michael Heseltine and even (somewhat) Tony Blair
8. Ian Duncan Smith joined Farage in disclaiming any responsibility for the infamous "£350M" Leave lie. This is despite being filmed and photographed in front of the claim on numerous occasions.
9. The Institute of Directors has said that one quarter of members polled have put hiring plans on hold, around 5% are planning redundancies, one fifth are considering moving business outside of the UK and two-thirds said the outcome of the referendum was negative for their business.
10. Finally, contrary to those who claimed that there is no hurry to invoke A50 and the UK has unlimited time, it's quite possible that if Cameron attends the European council on Tuesday his conversation there will be sufficient to constitute invoking A50, based on an interpretation by Derrick Wyatt [BBC]

 

[catsmate]

Boris sayw there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

So that's ok then.

As long as the UK continues to fork over several billion to the EU, abides by EU regulations, accepts free movement of people and the rest that's fine.

 

[Darat]

Still think we should have a general election before any negotiations take place. The UK needs to have a choice of what we want negotiated.

 

[catsmate]

The UK government could in principle at anytime disband the entire elected governments of Scotland, Wales and so on.

That seems legally dubious at best. I refer you to Sir David Edward's evidence to the HoL inquiry. It would appear that, at the vesy least, the abolition of Holyrood would require a legislative consent motion fro that body.

 

[Francesca R]

The 'gilt yield' (return on UK government bonds) has fallen to its lowest level ever. Yeild from 10 year beyond has fallen below 1% for the first time.

That suggests the expectation of recession / deflation is stronger than concerns over the government's ability to service its debt (as in Moodys' negative outlook announcement)

 

[gypsyjackson]

In general brexit news.

1. Contrary to some claims sterling has not recovered but rather fallen further in this morning's trading.
2. Barclays, RBS and Easyjet shares have slumped, in fact trading in Barclays has been suspended after they fell >10%.
3. Osborne's attempt to reassure business doesn't appear to be working.
4. The 'gilt yield' (return on UK government bonds) has fallen to its lowest level ever. Yeild from 10 year beyond has fallen below 1% for the first time.
5. The Labour shadow cabinet didn't take kindly to the dismissal of Benn and the revelations about Corbyn's lack of Remain support, eleven others resigned.
6. Speculation about a Scottish attempt to block the UK's departure from the EU gain pace. [BBC]
7. As does speculation about a parliamentary attempt to block brexit. [The Guardian]. Interestingly those involved now include Michael Heseltine and even (somewhat) Tony Blair
8. Ian Duncan Smith joined Farage in disclaiming any responsibility for the infamous "£350M" Leave lie. This is despite being filmed and photographed in front of the claim on numerous occasions.
9. The Institute of Directors has said that one quarter of members polled have put hiring plans on hold, around 5% are planning redundancies, one fifth are considering moving business outside of the UK and two-thirds said the outcome of the referendum was negative for their business.
10. Finally, contrary to those who claimed that there is no hurry to invoke A50 and the UK has unlimited time, it's quite possible that if Cameron attends the European council on Tuesday his conversation there will be sufficient to constitute invoking A50, based on an interpretation by Derrick Wyatt [BBC]

Bad news all round then.

On the last, there are a hundred and one different actions which might look a bit like invoking A50, but I doubt anything like that would actually do so. If the Council spokesman referred to in the BBC report says a formal notification would be needed, then that's probably what they'll wait for.

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

You didn't actually read what I wrote?

I was perplexed by how Mike extrapolated "52% of the british public" from "a few ignorant and flippant ****wits".

(let alone the sketchy relationship between "52% of the british public" and the 51.9% of the 72.2% turnout who voted Brexit)

 

[Craig B]

And one thing the Scottish Parliament does not have the right to do is bind the UK parliament to Scottish independence against its will simply by calling a referendum.

Disagree?

No, that's right. That's why independence movements sometimes turn into bloody affairs, as in Ireland - but a century ago. There was no peaceful way of achieving it. But in practice the modern UK government is neither so despotic not so foolish.

 

[Francesca R]

No, that's right.

OK

But in practice the modern UK government is neither so despotic not so foolish.

Probably not

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I don't think that will be tried again. Looks too much like repudiation of one's debt. If you're convinced it isn't and that nobody Scotland wants on-side (IE bond investors) would think it was either then you should hope the SNP pulls it out again.

It was simply a statement of a fact that Scotland as it stands has not agreed ANY share of UK debt and that the rUK doesn't get to decide what that number would be. If people like Osborne were going to be dicks about the separation as they were indicating then we could be too.

At no point did I ever advocate for not taking any share of the debt but I was very strong in advocating that 1) it was a position that the SNP could legitimately take in any negotiation and 2) Not agreeing to accept a share of someone else's debt is not, never could be and will never be 'a default'

The idea that the rUK could simply post a bill to Edinburgh and that suddenly the world's financial markets would take that as gospel and start punishing Scotland for debts they don't have was a nonsense. The idea that people's who's job it is to make money would think Scotland more risky because they were in better shape financially (no debt) was also clearly nonsense.

If the argument was that the Tory's mates in the city would simply try to punish Scotland for annoying the Tories well we're used to that anyway.

And one thing the Scottish Parliament does not have the right to do is bind the UK parliament to Scottish independence against its will simply by calling a referendum.

Disagree?

The Scottish Parliament does not have that right AFAIK within it's existing legislation. The people of Scotland possibly do have that right through other means.

The UK PM is supposed to be answerable to all of the people of the UK. Nicola is not. And she is not trying to force her will on the people of England and Wales. She's quite happy for E&W to leave the EU as they voted to do.

 

[LondonJohn]

That suggests the expectation of recession / deflation is stronger than concerns over the government's ability to service its debt (as in Moodys' negative outlook announcement)

Yep, plus of course a large portion of the flight from sterling, UK gilts and UK stocks/bonds is the sheer uncertainty of the current situation. That presents an inherent inability to calculate risk premiums, and in that environment the cogent reaction is usually simply to sell, and transfer capital into instruments where at least one feels one has an adequate understanding of the risk/return.

 

[McHrozni]

In general brexit news.

1. Contrary to some claims sterling has not recovered but rather fallen further in this morning's trading.
2. Barclays, RBS and Easyjet shares have slumped, in fact trading in Barclays has been suspended after they fell >10%.
3. Osborne's attempt to reassure business doesn't appear to be working.
4. The 'gilt yield' (return on UK government bonds) has fallen to its lowest level ever. Yeild from 10 year beyond has fallen below 1% for the first time.
5. The Labour shadow cabinet didn't take kindly to the dismissal of Benn and the revelations about Corbyn's lack of Remain support, eleven others resigned.
6. Speculation about a Scottish attempt to block the UK's departure from the EU gain pace. [BBC]
7. As does speculation about a parliamentary attempt to block brexit. [The Guardian]. Interestingly those involved now include Michael Heseltine and even (somewhat) Tony Blair
8. Ian Duncan Smith joined Farage in disclaiming any responsibility for the infamous "£350M" Leave lie. This is despite being filmed and photographed in front of the claim on numerous occasions.
9. The Institute of Directors has said that one quarter of members polled have put hiring plans on hold, around 5% are planning redundancies, one fifth are considering moving business outside of the UK and two-thirds said the outcome of the referendum was negative for their business.
10. Finally, contrary to those who claimed that there is no hurry to invoke A50 and the UK has unlimited time, it's quite possible that if Cameron attends the European council on Tuesday his conversation there will be sufficient to constitute invoking A50, based on an interpretation by Derrick Wyatt [BBC]

In other words, Experts 10 : 0 Brexiters.

I'm not all that surprised, really.

McHrozni

 

[Information Analyst]

But levels of population increase are also a legitimate concern even for the non-racist/ xenophobes.

Around half of the current growth is down to birth rates. of net migration, half of it is EU citizens. So basically the EU is only 25% of the issue.

I hope everyone who comments on this subject has read Ashcroft's in depth survey post-referendum which I linked to above. The primary motivator for those who voted Leave wasn't immigration, it was the democratic deficit.

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? Actually, one could point out that there is considerable overlap in the supposed "reasons" for voting Leave. Even so, 33% opting for the border/immigration choice is still a significant chunk.

 

[Francesca R]

Yep, plus of course a large portion of the flight from sterling, UK gilts and UK stocks/bonds is the sheer uncertainty of the current situation. That presents an inherent inability to calculate risk premiums, and in that environment the cogent reaction is usually simply to sell, and transfer capital into instruments where at least one feels one has an adequate understanding of the risk/return.

Except that gilt yields falling suggests buying not selling.

 

[catsmate]

Bad news all round then.

On the last, there are a hundred and one different actions which might look a bit like invoking A50, but I doubt anything like that would actually do so. If the Council spokesman referred to in the BBC report says a formal notification would be needed, then that's probably what they'll wait for.

The EU gets to make the rules on what constitutes notification. And there's a certain amount of hostility against the UK (and especially that cretin Cameron) there.